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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2016 7:05 pm    Post subject: Type XVIa curiosity         Reply with quote

Its not a sword I see done all that often. Albion has the Crecy. I've seen some Atrims that are XVIa or close cousins over the years...but not a ton of them. I also don't see that much in the photo albums and museum collections here that are clearly XVIa swords to me. Granted that amateur judgement, but based on what the Type is described as, I find that a bit curious. The Albion Crecy was very popular at its launch but its not sold out and some of the other models that seemed to hit the street with less hype are sold out.

Maybe type XVIII just rules the collecting mindset?

Perhaps the Crecy is just a bit too simple to the eye?

Would it matter if some of the furniture was different? For fun I did some very simple playing with paint! Not that I can find any historical examples for any of this, but do any of them work? Do any of them have precedence? Would any of them be interesting if they existed?



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"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Lloyd Winter




Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 27 Aug 2011

Posts: 172

PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Personally the Crecy never did anything for me. I would probably like it a lot better with a curved guard and a scent stopper pommel. I often think of refitting my Prince, or at least redoing the handle but that's another story and another topic.

In the end I find that I really don't like type XVIs. I find the type XV and XVIII families much more aesthetically appealing. There may be something to the idea that type XVIIIs, and for me XVs, are much more appealing to the modern collector.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: For grins         Reply with quote

Added some down curved guards with scent stoppers. Again, not that I've found any historical references but are they any more appealing to the modern eye?


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"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was fond of my Crecy. With the exception of maybe the Brescia, it was perhaps the nicest feeling hand-and-a-half Albion I've held. I ended up selling mine, but played with one at Albion's table last Gen Con and realized that I kind of miss it. Maybe not enough to buy another as it is, but #5 on your lineup is kind of making me want to give Christian Fletcher a call and see what he can do with that picture and a Crecy blade. On a side note, I've often wished for Albion to introduce some minor customization options similar to what your picture demonstrates, or at least whip a few more variations on a theme like they did for the XVa (two blades, seven models).

I don't think the fact that the Crecy hasn't sold out can be attributed to a lack of popularity, though. Of all the Next Gen models that have sold out, most were limited to runs of 100. The Crecy (along with several others) had a run of 1000, and the only sold out sword produced in that quantity is the Chieftain.

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 19 Jul, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think part of the problem with XVIa swords is that there's not that many extant historical examples in books that many general readers/enthusiasts have access to read. Alongside those available on myArmoury, I had a look over at Bill Blake's Sword Site. Of the various XVIa swords he has posted, many are miscategorized, and there were only perhaps two that seemed like they might be possible XVIas.

Yet both of these swords leave me with doubts as to their authenticity. The one with the marble pommel is fairly straight forward- it looks a little too good, the combination of all the various elements seeming too decorated, too much like something a modern person might recreate. The other sword is more tricky, but the pommel seems dubious to me, and the grip length seems more consistent with what you'd expect to find on a 15th century sword. It's hard to say for sure, but the fuller's termination near the inlay looks a bit abrupt.

In my view, neither of these swords is a strong candidate as a basis for reproductions. There's just too much that seems dubious about them.





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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my make believe variant list, my proclivity is number 3. Interesting in that I usually have a thing for waisted grips but they seem to just look proportionally wrong somehow with the Crecy blade. At least to me. I also find it the comparative lack of interest and example intriguing due to its place in history. So much change across the interval.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 328

PostPosted: Wed 20 Jul, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've had a chance to cut with and handle a few different examples of Albion's Crecy, it's a good model but it always looked and felt like it was missing a peen block to me. A few years ago I poured though a ton of late 15th/early 16th c. art trying to justify a XIIa(Baron!) in that era. I thought I found a few examples but on a second look they all had fullers that stopped about halfway down the blade so I'm guessing they were really meant to depict XVIa's. A Crecy that kept the same pommel and cross but added a peen block and waisted grip would be a really neat sharp for KDF practitioners, I'd order one in a heartbeat!
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2016 12:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Personally, I think the Borringholm (XVIa.2 of the myArmoury article) sword would make a good XVIa reproduction given its distinctive cross. My main concern would be that it may not sell that much, and I suspect manufacturers would worry about the same thing. The third XVIa in the article might be a safer bet in terms of sales, although I don't think it has the same distinctive character as the Borringholm sword possesses.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hadn't thought of a peen block but now that you mention it, yeah, I think the sword really does need one visually. Not sure if it "historically" goes on the sword but not really sure how "historical" and how "inspired by historical" the Crecy is. I'm not really finding anything that looks like it in the photos I've dug through. Not that my poor search results mean much.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 328

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's actually a pretty small sample of the thousands of surviving swords that we get to see unless we have a backstage pass to some museum. I agree that I haven't seen pics of an antique XVIa that looks like the Crecy but I have seen lots of historical artwork that appears to be representing similar pieces and I'm sure the Albion crew had additional sources of inspiration to draw on, probably even original pieces in various collections we don't get a look at.

Peen blocks aren't just for looking at, they also enhance pommel strikes. They can be seen on XVI/XVIa's depicted in German artwork from the second half of the 14th century onward which puts them around the time that Liechtenauer is believed to have lived. He didn't invent KDF of course, 3227.a tells us it was already hundreds of years old and art evidence supports this but it's still nice to have a sword to train with from an era we have written records for. Something else I like about the Crecy for this purpose is it's actually kind of small and light so it works well in one hand by itself or with a buckler or dagger and of course you can also wield it short so it's a good platform to explore several different facets of KDF on.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4693/12796/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5434/17874/
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Sat 23 Jul, 2016 8:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like I'm going to try commissioning one, although. Talking to the smith what I'm templating is a rarer version of a XVIa (seen but not seen often). Guess we'll have to wait many months and see how it turns out. Not sure what I'm starting won't end up needing to morph into something else altogether to get what I think I want and stay in the historical record.

Been a long time since I've done this...maybe a decade. Bike tech has hit a change inflection point that needs sorted out so I guess toy money gets to flow this way a bit, for a bit.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 328

PostPosted: Sat 23 Jul, 2016 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool! Please post when it's done, XVI/a's are among my favorite types.
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul, 2016 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Page 64 of Oakeshott SAC shows sketches of an existing (somewhere) XVIa and a couple of swords on their way toward XVIa based on 14th century art. These have relatively slender blades and short handles.

Those were part of the inspiration for this commission. Although it was directly based on a single-hand XVI it ended up approaching XVIa proportions.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=30378
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Felix R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Reading list: 25 books

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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jul, 2016 2:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello guys. Honestly, I don't see what the problem is with the simplicity of the Crecy. As I was always looking for budget when it comes to swords, I own the Crecy, the Fiore and the Yeoman. All just simple and plain swords with fantastic handling and performance. The Crecy in particular has everything it needs. It might be plain looking, but it is elegant in its appearance. Also it is a fantastic handling sword. And it is one of the best price for the package swords I had the pleasure to handle.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,489

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Got a draft technical drawing back. Starting to tweak some details.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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