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Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > What kind of heraldic adornment is this? (help from XVth c.) Reply to topic
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Mar, 2016 1:46 pm    Post subject: What kind of heraldic adornment is this? (help from XVth c.)         Reply with quote

Could anyone help me with it? I would like to know its name, in which time it was used and where it was used


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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Tue 29 Mar, 2016 7:02 am    Post subject: What kind of heraldic adornment is this? (Help from XVth c.)         Reply with quote


Interesting. But I can't figure out what symbol is that on the shield.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The crests on the bascinets, or the arms on the shield?

The arms on the shield in the second photo are for the Dukes of Brittany, and represent ermine, with the black spots symbolizing the black tips of the tails on the white winter coat.


The second is an ostrich plume.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4121/8429/



The first image is a fleur-de-lis crest, which was frequently used by the French royalty. The 1421 inventory of King Charles VI mentions one:
Premièrement, un bacinet d'acier doré de fin or, à une double fleur de lis de cuivre doré hachée, pour mectre dessus ledit bacinet, dont fault le camail, qui estoit de jaseran, comme il appert par le précédent inventoire.
(First, a steel bascinet, gilt with fine gold, with a double fleur-de-lis with gilt copper hatching as a crest, with the camail, which was listed as being of jazerant per the preceding inventory.)



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Greyson Brown




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PostPosted: Tue 29 Mar, 2016 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are referring to the the sleeve-type garment, that is probably a cote-hardie with tippet sleeves. The body of the cote-hardie was fairly tight fitted and could be quite short or rather long, so a short bodied cote-hardie may explain why the hem is not visible in the first image. I would generally expect to see the hem as you can in the image of the re-enactors. Tippet sleeves (which essentially stop near the elbow but have a tail extending down from them) were, to the best of my recollection, more of a 14th century fashion than 15th century. That said, their use may have continued later than I realized, especially in specific regions.

-- Grey

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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2016 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:
If you are referring to the the sleeve-type garment, that is probably a cote-hardie with tippet sleeves. The body of the cote-hardie was fairly tight fitted and could be quite short or rather long, so a short bodied cote-hardie may explain why the hem is not visible in the first image. I would generally expect to see the hem as you can in the image of the re-enactors. Tippet sleeves (which essentially stop near the elbow but have a tail extending down from them) were, to the best of my recollection, more of a 14th century fashion than 15th century. That said, their use may have continued later than I realized, especially in specific regions.

-- Grey


that was what I wanted to know, thanks

Mart Shearer wrote:
The first image is a fleur-de-lis crest, which was frequently used by the French royalty. The 1421 inventory of King Charles VI mentions one:
Premièrement, un bacinet d'acier doré de fin or, à une double fleur de lis de cuivre doré hachée, pour mectre dessus ledit bacinet, dont fault le camail, qui estoit de jaseran, comme il appert par le précédent inventoire.
(First, a steel bascinet, gilt with fine gold, with a double fleur-de-lis with gilt copper hatching as a crest, with the camail, which was listed as being of jazerant per the preceding inventory.)


Jazerant wouldn't be a type of islamic armour? a hauberk between layers of aketon (or al-qutun)
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jazerant originated in the Middle East, either Arabic or Persian, but was adopted by the Europeans by the 12th century. It is constructed the same, with mail and associated padding between layers of cloth.
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2008/05/jesseraunts.html

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Pedro Paulo Gaião




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PostPosted: Fri 27 May, 2016 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Jazerant originated in the Middle East, either Arabic or Persian, but was adopted by the Europeans by the 12th century. It is constructed the same, with mail and associated padding between layers of cloth.
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2008/05/jesseraunts.html


Adopted by europeans in 12th century? But then why we not see anything like a jazerant in contemporary art until 14th century, where you actually see paddings over mail armour? Still, you could even say it's just a Jupon on the armor of the time, and not necessarily a jazerant like this illustration:
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 31 May, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Because if the jazerant was made with mail sandwiched between two (or more) layers of cloth, the mail might be entirely encapsulated within the cloth and wouldn't be visible at all from the outside. Some of the examples of padded/quilted armour we see from the 12th and 13th centuries might well be jazerants instead of all-fabric jacks/gambesons/aketons.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Because if the jazerant was made with mail sandwiched between two (or more) layers of cloth, the mail might be entirely encapsulated within the cloth and wouldn't be visible at all from the outside. Some of the examples of padded/quilted armour we see from the 12th and 13th centuries might well be jazerants instead of all-fabric jacks/gambesons/aketons.


But do we have evidence of knights, sergeants or nobles using gambersons over their armor by this time? Only the gamberson being shown would suffice, since no nobleman would go to war with only paddings to protect himself. Also, mail itself wasn't exactly an armor accessible to the more common soldiers at that time, and the jazerant seems to sound like something even more elitist than mail at this time, especially to Muslims. That said, I would say the is no real point guessing if a common soldier is wearing a jazerant or not. I might be wrong on that, anyways.

Also, european jazerant was quilted/lined between the mail or it was simply paddings+mail+paddings in different pieces?

About the tippet sleeves, I find some pictures showing them, all from 15th century :


Source: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4818/13512/

By the way, that is the name of this helmets?

Others:
Source: http://demonagerie.tumblr.com/post/3184788599...-f44v-mars
Source: http://discardingimages.tumblr.com/post/13757...ours-ghent
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2016 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro, no one's saying that there are jazerants in any of the images posted here. Mart originally translated a text for you while referencing the fleur-de-lis crest in one of the paintings.
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Raman A




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Dec, 2016 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greyson Brown wrote:
...to the best of my recollection, more of a 14th century fashion than 15th century. That said, their use may have continued later than I realized, especially in specific regions.

-- Grey


The cotehardie with tippet sleeves morphed into the houppelande around 1400, so it's probably that. Although, houppelande sleeves are generally arm-length and the garment is baggier around the torso. Maybe they stuck with an older style for practical reasons?

Here's another example I found:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4386/8764/
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2016 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
But do we have evidence of knights, sergeants or nobles using gambersons over their armor by this time? Only the gamberson being shown would suffice, since no nobleman would go to war with only paddings to protect himself.


This translated excerpt shows that sometimes even prominent nobles would go into a fight wearing nothing more than fabric (presumably padded or quilted) armour without taking the time to put on their mail:

http://deremilitari.org/2013/02/siege-of-burr...conqueror/


Quote:
Also, mail itself wasn't exactly an armor accessible to the more common soldiers at that time,


Europe was rapidly growing in wealth during the 12th and 13th centuries and mail was quickly becoming more affordable than in previous eras. By 1302 or 1304 or so, the entire first rank of the Flemish urban militia at Courtrai might have been dressed in mail.


Quote:
Also, european jazerant was quilted/lined between the mail or it was simply paddings+mail+paddings in different pieces?


To qualify as "jazerant," they probably would have had to be made up as a single garment rather than separate components.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even if the sleeves are tight, is it still possible to use the articulated pieces that protect joins in the elbow and shoulders? In the file at the bottom, from Froissart's Chronicles, there are men-at-arms with different types of clothes over their armor, but I don't think its likely there were plate pieces under the clothes for it would complicate the movements. When I actually see those pieces, there were worn over the cloth. That said, it's safe to assume that, when using such garments, the wearer would have only mail as underneath defenses? These sets, for example, doesn't seen to have shoulder pieces:

https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/157344580714875424/
https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/84231455508075773/
https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/110971578288617944/

Using clothes over armor can achieve some relevant extra-protection or its simply stylistic? This padded dress, for example, seens to have defensive properties (I have seen some manuscript illuminatures related to this, mainly from Chronicles de Angleterre and Froissart's Chronicles). There is a primary source also describing a cerimony where King Ferdinand the Catholic was wearing padded clothes covered with brocade over his armor; his noblemen were similarly armed "in french fashion".



And by the way, what's the name of this type of sleeves? I have seen it in burgundian pictures, generally
https://www.outfit4events.com/runtime/cache/images/redesignProductFull/mna_1052.JPG



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