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Isaac D Rainey




Location: Evansville Indiana
Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Portuguese arquebuses in the early 16th century?         Reply with quote

Does anybody have any good sources on arquebuses in the early 16th century? Is there information on the German exportation of firearms of this period?
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Mar, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Portuguese arquebuses in the early 16th century?         Reply with quote

Isaac D Rainey wrote:
Does anybody have any good sources on arquebuses in the early 16th century? Is there information on the German exportation of firearms of this period?




It was the Portuguese that introduced the matchlock to Japan and other south Asia countries. How they were made is a very interesting story. When the Portuguese captured Goa India in 1510 they acquired the gun works and smiths that were producing firearms for their enemies. This type of gun with a European type snap matchlock mechanism were quite different than the matchlocks used in India, Persia and the Ottoman empire.

Quote:
Rare Portuguese (Goa, India) Snap Matchlock Gun, ca. 1560, Dresden Museum (Rüstkammer), presented to the Saxon Elector Christian I. by Francesco I. de Medici, Grand Duke of Toscana, in 1587. Overall length 164.2 cm, barrel 136.3 cm, bore 13.8 mm, weight 6,320 g. In decor, techniques of painting and materials mingle Portuguese, Muslim-Indian and Japanese influences.


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Isaac D Rainey




Location: Evansville Indiana
Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Wed 23 Mar, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information Eric, that is interesting. I should have been more clear, what I need is sources from or a few years before 1503. It would be nice if it was something I could cite.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Mar, 2016 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isaac D Rainey wrote:
Thanks for the information Eric, that is interesting. I should have been more clear, what I need is sources from or a few years before 1503. It would be nice if it was something I could cite.
Isaac, I am not sure if there is much info from that time period, I wouldnt mind seeing it could be found.

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James A D




Location: London
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Mar, 2016 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Eric S"]
Isaac D Rainey wrote:

What an interesting extract, Eric. May I ask where it is from, please?
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Mar, 2016 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James A D wrote:

What an interesting extract, Eric. May I ask where it is from, please?


Certainly James.

The Defences of Macau: Forts, Ships and Weapons over 450 years. By Richard J. Garrett, 2010

https://books.google.com/books?id=24Wxr5vL1YcC&pg=PA176&dq=Portuguese+arquebuses&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG8MbBsdnLAhVBkIMKHZwUA7sQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=Portuguese%20arquebuses&f=false

Another book with some info on this subject and time period is "Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait", Robert Elgood, 1995
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James A D




Location: London
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Mar, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
James A D wrote:

What an interesting extract, Eric. May I ask where it is from, please?
The Defences of Macau: Forts, Ships and Weapons over 450 years. By Richard J. Garrett, 2010

https://books.google.com/books?id=24Wxr5vL1YcC&pg=PA176&dq=Portuguese+arquebuses&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG8MbBsdnLAhVBkIMKHZwUA7sQ6AEIMzAE#v=onepage&q=Portuguese%20arquebuses&f=false

Another book with some info on this subject and time period is "Firearms of the Islamic World: In the Tared Rajab Museum, Kuwait", Robert Elgood, 1995

Thanks for these recommendations, Eric.
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2016 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Portuguese arquebuses in the early 16th century?         Reply with quote

I find the statement that the Portuguese did not have arquebuses at all by 1502 to be dubious.

That statement was merely for those specific Portugese on those specific ships, not the Portuguese as a whole.

Arquebuses were spread across Europe by the late 15th century, in Italy and Hungary they were already in mass usage on the field by the 1470s-80s.

As far as Portugal, hand-held guns [tiros de fogo] and espingarieros ['riflemen'] appear for the first time in Morocco with King Duarte’s expedition against Tangiers in 1437.

As the Portuguese Tapecarias da Tomada de Arzila from 1471 also show various firearms, among them a couple of arquebuses.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Isaac D Rainey




Location: Evansville Indiana
Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2016 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interestingly enough, they recently found one Vasco da Gama's ships and recovered a few arquebus barrels, which are believed to be German.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/10390993_10153583939523299_1581306812753889561_n.jpg?oh=40baf8ae9f6e0ad7ccf01ebef01e2a5e&oe=57912613
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Posts: 792

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Portuguese arquebuses in the early 16th century?         Reply with quote

Mario M. wrote:
I find the statement that the Portuguese did not have arquebuses at all by 1502 to be dubious.

That statement was merely for those specific Portugese on those specific ships, not the Portuguese as a whole.

Arquebuses were spread across Europe by the late 15th century, in Italy and Hungary they were already in mass usage on the field by the 1470s-80s.

As far as Portugal, hand-held guns [tiros de fogo] and espingarieros ['riflemen'] appear for the first time in Morocco with King Duarte’s expedition against Tangiers in 1437.

As the Portuguese Tapecarias da Tomada de Arzila from 1471 also show various firearms, among them a couple of arquebuses.


Mario, can you post any references for this information.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Isaac D Rainey wrote:
Interestingly enough, they recently found one Vasco da Gama's ships and recovered a few arquebus barrels, which are believed to be German.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/10390993_10153583939523299_1581306812753889561_n.jpg?oh=40baf8ae9f6e0ad7ccf01ebef01e2a5e&oe=57912613


Issac, is there a link to this information. What I have read does not show with any certainty that this was actually one of his ships, just some circumstantial evidence. (based on artifacts that include a Portuguese coin minted for trade with India, one of only two coins of this type known to exist, and stone cannonballs engraved with what appear to be the initials of Vincente Sodré, da Gama's maternal uncle and the commander of the Esmeralda.)
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Portuguese arquebuses in the early 16th century?         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Mario, can you post any references for this information.


I read this piece some time ago, it has listed sources beneath the text;

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/15/Morocco_By_Cook.htm


The main topic is Morocco, but with it, the information about the Portuguese is also presented.


About the 1471 depiction, here a cut out from the tapestry;



They are at the very bottom.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Isaac D Rainey




Location: Evansville Indiana
Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the expeditions website.

http://esmeraldashipwreck.com/
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 792

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mario M. wrote:
Eric S wrote:
Mario, can you post any references for this information.


I read this piece some time ago, it has listed sources beneath the text;

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/15/Morocco_By_Cook.htm


The main topic is Morocco, but with it, the information about the Portuguese is also presented.


About the 1471 depiction, here a cut out from the tapestry;



They are at the very bottom.


Isaac D Rainey wrote:
Here is the expeditions website.

http://esmeraldashipwreck.com/


Thanks for the info!!
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