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Neal Colleran




Location: Bluffton, SC, USA
Joined: 09 Apr 2015

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Type X with ring pommel         Reply with quote

Hey guys,
I came across a picture of a type X blade with an 'Irish' open ring hilt and it was absolutely beautiful. Have any of you seen Type X swords with open ring hilts?

It seems doubtful that it would be historically accurate as most open ring pommels are more 13 to 1500s.

It was still very nice to see. If you guys have any, I'd like to see some pictures.

- Neal Colleran
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Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Neal. All except two of the ring pommelled swords we have today have type XIX blades. One (in a private collection) is a two hander with a long unfullered lenticular blade. The other (Belfast Museum) is a type XVIII. All of these are dated to the early 16th century. The only evidence we have for dating this pommel type is artwork, which is all early 16th century, but it could be earlier for all we know.

Jason
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There were a number of very late Roman, early Migration Period swords with ring-pommel hilts like this modern reproduction:



Here's a thread I posted regarding the type:

https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26777

You may have seen an attempt to reproduce this type of sword, if the one you saw was a modern reproduction.

Alternatively, as far as I understand, the ring pommel is a fairly late type-- late medieval to early Renaissance. However, Ireland didn't go in much for plate armour, so cutting forms of blades hung on for longer in that part of the world. It's quite possible that an old blade may have been re-hilted in a modern style. There's a Katzbalger (Landsknecht sword, 16th or 17th century) with a 8th-century pattern-welded type X blade out there somewhere...
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Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jan, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason I believe you're mistaken. The Irish two hander with a ring pommel is currently kept in the National Museum in Dublin.
Éirinn go Brách
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Neal Colleran




Location: Bluffton, SC, USA
Joined: 09 Apr 2015

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2016 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry fellas,
My subject was worded oddly. I meant to say that I saw a reproduction type X with a ring hilt. I proposed they were likely historically inaccurate and meant if anyone has any reproduction or custom type X swords with ring hilts.

I actually am commissioning a sword that is based on a type X. The long single fuller with a wide blade, that tapers into a sharp point. I'm having a ring hilt put on it because that type of sword profile is built for cutting and the ring pommel puts more focus on the blade for cutting.

But regardless all your comments were educating and I really enjoy anything about Irish history. I'm currently in the midst of a Y-DNA test to learn more about the Colleran surname. My family is from Charlestown, County Mayo.

- Neal Colleran
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jan, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neal Colleran wrote:
But regardless all your comments were educating and I really enjoy anything about Irish history. I'm currently in the midst of a Y-DNA test to learn more about the Colleran surname. My family is from Charlestown, County Mayo.


This article will probably interest you then - if you have interest in Y-DNA research.
Irish people are now with current scientific knowledge most likely Indo-European immigrants that ousted the original Neolithic inhabitants starting from 4000 years ago (2000 BC).
So they brought in genes of red hair, blue eyes, ability to drink milk and speaking a indo-european dialect (Proto-Celtic) that ended up turning into the Celtic languages and also the genetic C282Y mutations causing haemochromatosis - a typical Irish genetic disease.
News: http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archi...ish-people
The academic article from PNAS: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/12/22/1518445113.full.pdf

"showed substantial Steppe genetic heritage indicating that the European population upheavals of the third millennium manifested all of the way from southern Siberia to the western ocean. This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying
introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish,Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. These include those coding for lactase persistence, blue eye color, Y chromosome R1b haplotypes, and the hemochromatosis C282Y allele; to our knowledge, the first detection of a
known Mendelian disease variant in prehistory. These findings together suggest the establishment of central attributes of the Irish genome 4,000 y ago.
"
Quoted from the PNAS article source given above.
If you are R1b - Yamnaya Culture ancestry from todays Ukraine! [92% of Welsh men, 85% of Irish men].

So also like modern Scandinavians speaking Germanic languages we both predominately come from North of the Black Sea (Ukraine) and the steppe-nomad Yamnaya culture and migrated west driving away theNeolithic farmers originally migrating into Europe from Anatolia (and displacing or mixing with European mesolithic people).

So the myth about Tuatha Dé Danaan (Tribe of Danu) being the last invasion of Ireland fits.
Danaan likely a genetive case of "Danu".
The Scythians (Indo-european Iranian speakers) lived between two rivers North of the Black Sea. They were called.
*Danu apara = The river to the rear [modern Russian Dneiper].
*Danu nazdya = The river to the front [modern Russian Dniester].

Danu simply means "river", so the Irish are the "tribe of the river goddess".

Danu becomes Don in Russian [another famous Russian River]. Actually it happens in Welsh as well as their goddess is called Dôn. The Danube/Donau another one with the Danu name. In modern Ossetic [an Iranian Language] the name for water is Don. You have Greek Daneans mentioned in Homer and a Germanic people called Danes, also both Indo-European speakers.
In Indian [The Rigveda written in Indo-European Sanskrit] you have the Asura goddess Dānu (rain/liquid) the mother of the serpent Vrtra which is killed by the Deva God Indra to release the waters!!
Thor and Indra is very much alike except in name and Vrtra and the Midgard-serpent (who lives in the ocean circling around Midgard) shows a shared dragon-killer mythology from a people in Ukraine [Yamnaya Culture] that as nomads wandered in opposite directions for finding pastures for their cattle.

The Iranian speaking Ossetic people that descend from Sarmatians and Alans also have a legend in their great Nart Cycle:

"The life of Batraz[edit]
The Sarmatians shared an almost spiritual connection with their weapons, and so the life of Batraz revolves around his magic sword. While a young man, Batraz pulls his sword from the roots of a tree. This could be connected to the fact that Sarmatians were buried with their swords embedded in the earth or stone at the heads of their graves. Also the sword of Batraz plays an important part of his death, when he is fatally wounded by his archenemy, Sainag-Alder. Legend has it that Batraz tells his friend to throw his sword into the ocean. The warrior is reluctant at first, not only because of the quality of the sword but because of the spiritual connection it had with Batraz. But in the end the warrior did throw the sword and it was caught by a water goddess."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batraz

Funny that is very much like the Arthur legend, isn't it [and the Ossetic story is definitely not a "Celtic loan"].
In probably originally Wales we have a Lady of the Lake giving Arthur a Sword ! He is killed by his arch enemy Mordred. He orders Perceval to throw the sword into the lake, but Perceval is reluctant. Arthur (and Batraz) cannot die before it is done. When the sword is thrown it is caught by The Lady of the Lake

So many groups of indo-european speakers named themselves after the "People of the Goddess of the waters/river" and probably had heroes receiving magical swords.

Groups also called themselves these names:
Old Iranian Arya- -> ērān -> Iran = (Land) of the Aryans
Greek superlative: aristos means "the best". Aristocracy = litt. "The best power/rule".
Sanskrit ārya = One that does noble deeds, a noble one.
Iran means so "(Land) of the noble ones/the best"!

It's safe to say that indo-europeans didn't have any confidence problems!

You can listen to reconstructed Indo-European as it perhaps sounded something like 4000 years ago......
Source: http://www.archaeology.org/exclusives/article...hers-fable
& http://www.archaeology.org/exclusives/article...#art_page2
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Neal Colleran




Location: Bluffton, SC, USA
Joined: 09 Apr 2015

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2016 9:12 am    Post subject: DNA         Reply with quote

Niels, thank you for the information.
It makes more sense to me that the Irish would have more in common with indo Europeans than Spaniards. I myself have blonde hair and blue eyes. Every man in my paternal line (even my great great grandfather born in 1862 in Mayo) have piercing deep set blue eyes, and it's eerie how similar each male in the direct line looks alike. Since my family is from Mayo, I'm expecting to have the M-222 because it's western Ireland which most the ancient blood exists. The tuatha de danaan landed in Connaught the province which mayo exists in.
I've been learning Gaelic and my last name was Mac Almurhain meaning son of the stranger from beyond the sea/pirate.
Sounds like Mac Olleran, which sounds like MacColleran, the descendent of this line took the name O'Colleran, when it should have been O'Olleran. But from what I gather the Collerans come from the Conmaicne Cuile Toladh. Forgive me because my keyboard lacks the characters I need to properly write the words in Gaelic spelling.

- Neal Colleran
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
Joined: 03 Sep 2014

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 796

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: DNA         Reply with quote

Neal Colleran wrote:
Niels, thank you for the information.
It makes more sense to me that the Irish would have more in common with indo Europeans than Spaniards. I myself have blonde hair and blue eyes. Every man in my paternal line (even my great great grandfather born in 1862 in Mayo) have piercing deep set blue eyes, and it's eerie how similar each male in the direct line looks alike. Since my family is from Mayo, I'm expecting to have the M-222 because it's western Ireland which most the ancient blood exists. The tuatha de danaan landed in Connaught the province which mayo exists in.
I've been learning Gaelic and my last name was Mac Almurhain meaning son of the stranger from beyond the sea/pirate.
Sounds like Mac Olleran, which sounds like MacColleran, the descendent of this line took the name O'Colleran, when it should have been O'Olleran. But from what I gather the Collerans come from the Conmaicne Cuile Toladh. Forgive me because my keyboard lacks the characters I need to properly write the words in Gaelic spelling.


I don't think M-222 could be called "ancient". It's actually more interesting in being a local Northern variant within Ireland!
If it was ancient you would rather see a dominant even distribution through most of Ireland. Apparently in no area - whether Ireland or Scotland - does it comprise more than 20%.
A founder group would likely become very dominant Y-DNA wise (unless the men are wiped out by hostile invaders), so the reason could be one of the following three scenarios.

1) So if 20% as max. it probably shows a perhaps later incoming group joining up with settled Indo-Europeans in Ireland.
Most often "later" incoming group means conquerers, whom rather than killing the male inhabitants, becomes the new upper class and leaders (the best, the nobles ?).

Off course over 4000 years many Indo-European descended groups must have tried and some succeeded in settling in Ireland and that different Indo-European groups would have different genetic sub-markers [not only Vikings or English].
When M-222 arrived in Ireland and from where is impossible to tell (yet), but it probably did spread from Ireland to Scotland with the Ulster Scots invasion into Caledonia/Alba changing the name to Scotland.

2) It's also possibly that the mutation occurred with one man in Northern Ireland and then spread from him, so it wasn't part of the original Indo-European settlers Y-DNA makeup. This is the basis of the "fertile King hypothesis" - Niall Noígíallach.

3) With 5 kingdoms having different dynasties, then "fertile" kings and nobles from different male lines around Ireland could create over time different Y-DNA distribution from Kingdom to Kingdom within Ireland!

You name Mac Almurhain and its meaning does point to option 1) right Laughing Out Loud - but it certainly points to not being local in Connacht (or somewhere else in Ireland).
It's just how long back in time the name dates - if it is viking age you might end up with a different Y-DNA than M-222 Wink
If having viking-DNA ends up to be the case, then it's very likely you would be "Gall-Gaedhil" - an independent group of people descended from mostly Scandinavian fathers and Celtic-speaking mothers having Irish names.
Don't worry they were pretty badass as well! It was a band of people entirely created of mixed origins - probably tired of being called names by both groups? They were also called "Austmenn" (Eastmen) by the Vikings to separate them from "Vestmenn" (Vestmen = Gaels).
Even though eventually someone could have settled in Connacht. It all depends how far a family can be traced back locally.
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