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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
Joined: 21 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Disarming with sharp blades, blade damage etc. MMM 2015         Reply with quote

Hello fellow enthusiasts,

as in every year Ars Gladii from Austria was a guest at the Knife Makers Show in the Blademuseum in Solingen, Germany.

There we showed, among other things, a disarming with a sharp blade.
Very interesting, for us as well, was the fencing with sharp blades to show the edge damage.
Correct techniques resulted in minor and mostly irrelevant damage while improper Hollywood techniques resulted in deep gouges and cuts in the blade.

See for yourself.
Here is our video.

Have fun!

Herbert

www.arsgladii.at
Historical European Martial Arts
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Herbert, excellent stuff.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Henri Chandler




Location: New Orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting, and courageous stuff... (including the risk to your nice blades!)

Thanks for posting Herbert. How long have y'all been doing partner training with sharps?

Jean

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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you!

We only occasionally do partner training with sharps.

We aim to debunk myths and show people the difference between Hollywood and reality.

There have been so many questions about blade damage at previous demonstrations, that we decided to show people what happened.

best wishes

Herbert

www.arsgladii.at
Historical European Martial Arts
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Lancelot Chan
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Location: Hong Kong
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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the video. It's interesting to compare the result I had on my sharp to the result of your technique demonstration. Big Grin
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2015 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great video! it's great to see someone biting the bullet and showing what happens to a sword when it properly ends up in the path of an opponents blade.

A personal Anecdote, a member of the highschool reenactment group I'm an alumni member of bought a cheap windlass and within an afternoon of playing with some peoples Baltimore Knife and Sword blunts had turned it into a saw blade via static blocks with the edge a la typical "stage" fighting holywood dribble. Ouch Eek!
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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
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PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2015 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All the damage done with proper techniques would have been honed out within 10 minutes on a good honing stone.
Only one was a little bit deeper and would have need a bit more attention. None of them would have resulted in a problem.

Every static block (which was the …don't do this!) resulted in a deep gouge of about 2 mm in both blades.

Nothing new but it was nice to show the people. It got them talking.

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Historical European Martial Arts
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Sat 16 May, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This certainly looks like a great show.

However, as far as the old parrying debate goes, note that we have strong evidence for edge-on-edge parries and static blocks in at least 16th-century texts. Regardless of the damage caused, certain historical styles did employ hard edge-on-edge blocks. Saying static edge-on-edge block are Hollywood or aren't historical depends the period and style.

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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
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PostPosted: Sat 16 May, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Saying static edge-on-edge block are Hollywood or aren't historical depends the period and style.


You are certainly right there. And I am quite sure that historically correct or not, it happened.
In the end I'd rather destroy my blade than my life.
We also have originals with similar damages…although often it is quite difficult to judge when and how they occurred.

Usually static 90° blocks don't make sense and are not good swordsmanship. There are better ways to deal with an attack.

But even if they happened, of which I am sure they did, it is still good to know what damage they cause, to see the differences in damage from good technique and also have a sense of how a sharp blade binds, feels and behaves.

In my opinion we can learn a lot from these experiments - that is why we use sharp blades in partner training from time to time. Of course proper precautions, safety equipment and clear communication about what happened is paramount.

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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Sat 16 May, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Herbert Schmidt wrote:
Usually static 90° blocks don't make sense and are not good swordsmanship. There are better ways to deal with an attack.

But even if they happened, of which I am sure they did, it is still good to know what damage they cause, to see the differences in damage from good technique and also have a sense of how a sharp blade binds, feels and behaves.

So are you saying that these 16th century texts that describe or advocate the use of static blocks with the edge are demonstrating bad swordsmanship? Isn't that judgement of value a bit hasty?

Regards,

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Vincent
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

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PostPosted: Sat 16 May, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We can call what you did "correct" technique if you like, but it definitely wasn't performed realistically, which makes what you say about edge damage irrelevant.

The difference between strikes at full force statically parried or while displacing or riposting is simply the notch in the blade itself, static parrying will give a very straight "clean" notch, where as displacing or re-posting will tend to give a twisted edge notch, how deep it is depends on force, your not using any so the damage is limited... of course.

Personal Experience? I've done it myself and spare regularly with sharps, if you want to know how just look up my posts where i discuss it. By the way for your own safety if your going to spare with sharps, don't use stiff or pointy swords... your asking for trouble.
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Herbert Schmidt




Location: Austria / Europe
Joined: 21 Mar 2004

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Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sun 17 May, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
Herbert Schmidt wrote:
Usually static 90° blocks don't make sense and are not good swordsmanship. There are better ways to deal with an attack.

But even if they happened, of which I am sure they did, it is still good to know what damage they cause, to see the differences in damage from good technique and also have a sense of how a sharp blade binds, feels and behaves.

So are you saying that these 16th century texts that describe or advocate the use of static blocks with the edge are demonstrating bad swordsmanship? Isn't that judgement of value a bit hasty?

Regards,


I fell again for the temptation of simplifying. To put it more correctly and distinctly: Static 90° blocks with swords used in the 13th and 14th century according to the manuscripts we know of do show bad swordsmanship.

This is simply because you leave your opponent with all possibilities. You have just stopped his blade but he is still dominating the fight, still giving the tempo, still executing his techniques…he is still in the vor.
That is why there are indes techniques… to take his domination (for) and turn it against him.
With a static block I gain very very little and usually lose a great chance. I also take a big risk and gain very little.
And that is why I would describe it as bad swordsmanship.

What anyone does with a backsword or any other type of sword is not within the area I wrote about.
And 16th cent. texts very often describe "Schulfechten" the fencing for show, tournament and play. And there you find quite a few techniques which would likely get you in trouble if you execute them in a duel with sharp swords where the other is trying to kill you…just think of the Prellhau and other curiosities.

But even in the Schulfechten you'll find few static blocks.

If you care, please name a source, or better still, quote it and we have something we can discuss about directly. Might be interesting.

best wishes

Herbert

www.arsgladii.at
Historical European Martial Arts
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