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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Bent Sword- No Tools Reply to topic
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: Bent Sword- No Tools         Reply with quote

I noticed that my Albion Templar has a subtle bend in the blade towards the point. This is not because of any fault of Albion's; the blade was not originally like this. I am guessing I bent it when practicing thrusts towards a hard surface. My intention was to use the surface to help guide with the consistency of my aim, but I accidentally impacted against it. Normally, I don't mind wear and tear on a sword as it's used, because that's totally normal. However, the frustrating thing is that this bend is not purely aesthetic; it distorts my strikes when I cut with the sword, making it feel "off" when I use it.

I'd like to fix my sword. The problem is that I don't have a work bench available here- nor is there one easily available nearby. Likewise, I have basically no tools available, aside from a hammer, a saw, and a few screwdrivers. At this time, mailing the sword back to Albion is not an option for me either.

What I'm wondering is, given my situation, is it possible to repair the sword? I have tried placing the weak of the blade against a solid surface and pressing with my hand against the flat. However, I am concerned that doing this could either a) warp the blade in the other direction, meaning that my sword subtly "wiggles" towards the point, instead of merely being bent, and b) I don't want to cause unnecessary internal stress to the blade by flexing it repeatedly.

Suggestions?
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you can fix the sword with the tools you have.

I will try to find some other videos as well but this shows the tools you will need to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc704LXiLn8

David L Smith
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another way to do it, he has a lot more shop that you do though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GJXX6-aVgI

I think if you make a pair of sword 'wrenches' out of wood you can fix your sword at home with out having to have a huge shop.

David L Smith
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 5:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David found the exact same video I did (the first one). I've seen a similar sword-straightener with a bit of a different design. Tools required are a saw, tape measure, hammer and fasteners.

SBG has a simple schematic: http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/straighten-sword-blade.html

Here's another forum with an overhead view. Also a link to an interesting Japanese cutting demo. http://www.unitedbackyardcutter.com/forum/vie...amp;t=1918

Not sure how to do double-edged swords. In the comments from the first video the guy says to wrap the blade with a cloth first.

Good luck.
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Sancar O.





Joined: 04 Mar 2014

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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can this technique be applied to antique swords?
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sancar O. wrote:
Can this technique be applied to antique swords?


That is really what it is for Sancar.

If you are going to attempt this, I would practice on something else like simple strips of metal or such for a while. Get the technique learned first and then apply them to your antique.

David L Smith
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would contact Albion - see what they can advise or do.

It was my understanding that a properly heat treated sword could not take a permanent bend.
As with all things Albion, I would expect only the best from them - and would also expect them to fix any issues occurring in a context of "normal" use of the weapon.

edit: just read that shipping to them was not an option. I'd still request advice from peter or the Albion team before attempting something irreversible Happy
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
I would contact Albion - see what they can advise or do.

It was my understanding that a properly heat treated sword could not take a permanent bend.
As with all things Albion, I would expect only the best from them - and would also expect them to fix any issues occurring in a context of "normal" use of the weapon.

edit: just read that shipping to them was not an option. I'd still request advice from peter or the Albion team before attempting something irreversible Happy



That is a good idea as well.

David L Smith
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
It was my understanding that a properly heat treated sword could not take a permanent bend.

No, that's not true at all. A properly heat treated sword is more resistant to permanent deformation, but not immune by any means.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Julien M wrote:
It was my understanding that a properly heat treated sword could not take a permanent bend.

No, that's not true at all. A properly heat treated sword is more resistant to permanent deformation, but not immune by any means.


Well I don't think any object made of actual matter can be said to be immune to deformation or damage if the correct amount of pressure is applied Happy Also don't forget that I'm implying a context of "normal" use of the weapon here.

This is an Albion sword - ie: a quality product. I would expect the blade to chip, tips to bend, but not the all blade to take a bend.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien,

Craig describes the bend in the blade as being "toward the point," which I take as being near the tip. If I were to bend an Albion's tip slightly during regular use, I would certainly not expect the company to be at fault. No matter the real or expected quality of their blades, a sword in use is a tool, and tools are weakened with use... Unless if the circumstances were exceptional, which this case does not sound like, requesting Albion to fix the sword (as if it were their responsibility, rather than with the expectation of paying them for the repair work) sounds like poor form.

-Gregory
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:
requesting Albion to fix the sword (as if it were their responsibility, rather than with the expectation of paying them for the repair work) sounds like poor form.


That's not what I meant either. I meant I would go to them for advice on how to deal with the situation. I would feel comfortable fixing just about anything on a sword, save for an issue like this. That said, we are all speculating here, as a picture of the damage would be useful to assess the situation. I've fixed a bend tip if that's what this is about by hammering it on a hard surface.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"As with all things Albion, I would expect only the best from them - and would also expect them to fix any issues occurring in a context of "normal" use of the weapon"

Sorry Julien, I took that statement out of context, or we may disagree. I would not expect Albion to be responsible for fixing any routine damage to a blade. A major malfunction, such as a snapped blade or hilt, broken tang, etc... That's one thing. But lots of other things go wrong (such as the nicks and bent tips you mentioned above) with weaponry being used normally, without it having to be the maker's fault. I presume that is the case with Craig's sword based on his description of the defect, but I may easily be mistaken.

-Gregory
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 08 May, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let me clarify about my sword. About 12 inches or so from the point, the sword subtly begins to curve to the left. It's not so dramatic as to be immediately obvious when looking at the sword. But if you look straight down the edge of the blade, you can see the slight curvature.

Looking at my original post, I see that using the word "bent" was maybe not the best choice, because it could imply more dramatic damage. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Edit: Here's a photo of the sword. This is after I had pushed against the flat in an attempt to straighten it.



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Julien M




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PostPosted: Sat 09 May, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No worries Gregory, I'm just trying to understand the issue just as you are.

Craig thx for the pict. I suppose you could clamp the sword in a vice between two slice of soft material (wood, rubber jaws etc) and bent it the other way. But as said, there *might* be a risk of snapping the sword. I've seen swords straighten this way, but right after heat treatment. I would be very uncomfortable attempting this without some guidance from an experienced smith. For me a PM to Peter J would be the way to go Happy
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 09 May, 2015 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have access to a vice anyway Julien, regardless of its suitability.
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Sat 09 May, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guys,

Marquenched 6150, as displayed by the Albion sword is going to resist straightening much more so than a deferentially heat treated katana or non heat treated piece of stock as shown in the videos and the diagram shown on th SBG site.

What I am going to suggest is not for the weak at heart (or simply send it to a smith or Albion). Warm/heat the blade at the curve. Not to an extreme heat but much hotter than you would want to hold (not even a straw or blue heat). lay the sword on the floor. Step on the curve and lift up the hilt. Don't be extreme in this but you will have to go a lot further in the other direction to bring it back the other way. Repeat as necessary. A small amount of heat will help it relax without disturbing the temper. A large vice will certainly work but let's go caveman and think about the possibilities if one does not have tools.. Two posts of rail, any way to create a fulcrum to bend across. In my example, your foot the fulcrum.

As thin as your Albion is at that point (heh), you will probably succeed but it may tend to curve again. It is quite possible it was curved when you received it. These things happen, even after the quench and tempering stages. Gus had a blade returned (5160 similar heat treat similar steel) and even after fixing it, it just wanted to curve again when let alone for awhile.

Bends at the hilt are difficult to deal with unless stripped from components.

Cheers

GC
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Sun 10 May, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, sometimes heat treating creates internal stresses in the blade that make it "want to" curve one way or another when subjected to external stress. Sometimes they're created in forging, sometimes they can even be inherent in the stock, already. The quality of the maker or their work has surprisingly little to do with it, too - no matter how good they are, every smith I've ever known gets nervous when it comes time to quench because it can be such a crapshoot even when you do everything right - and if the blade doesn't warp immediately during the hardening and tempering process, these inclinations can be downright impossible to notice.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Sun 10 May, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Julien M wrote:
It was my understanding that a properly heat treated sword could not take a permanent bend.

No, that's not true at all. A properly heat treated sword is more resistant to permanent deformation, but not immune by any means.


Well I don't think any object made of actual matter can be said to be immune to deformation or damage if the correct amount of pressure is applied Happy Also don't forget that I'm implying a context of "normal" use of the weapon here.

This is an Albion sword - ie: a quality product. I would expect the blade to chip, tips to bend, but not the all blade to take a bend.

Alright, that makes sense.

Although the question then becomes what counts as "normal" use. Is cutting with bad edge alignment normal use? Cutting relatively heavy targets like tatami mats with a wooden dowel inside? Pork legs or cow skulls? (They're meat and bone, after all, so most people would assume...) How about accidentally hitting the cutting stand? Happy

I would absolutely expect an Albion to withstand more and/or worse abuse than, say, a Windlass, but as you say, everything has its limits and an Albion sword is no exception - their limits may be more forgiving but they're still not all-forgiving, and it's really hard to know where exactly they lie until you stumble right across them, like Craig here. Happy

Oh, and I'd like to join the chorus suggesting that asking Albion for advice would be a good place to start, even if sending the sword in for repairs is not an option. I keep hearing good things about their customer support, and even at worst you can't lose anything by asking.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 10 May, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

when I agreed that calling albion, I was saying their advice before you begin repairs is a good idea, not that they should fix it.
David L Smith
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