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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sat 28 Mar, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: 15e century cannon?         Reply with quote

Hi,
Bought this cannon a few days ago. I think that it's 15e century but maybe someone can identify it.
The bore is approximately 11cm and the length 54cm. looks like the front of the cannon broke of.
Hard to tell if this one is cast or forged, im not a specialist. If you look at the barrelbands, they have some kind of decoration on it.



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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 4:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bloody hell, nice one! It should be forged, hoop and stave construction. Send pics of the other end?

It looks very good to me. The only thing that's unusual are the zigzags on the bands. Never seen that....

Get this:

[url]http://www.boydellandbrewer.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=6992 its about the most comprehensive book on nthat era of cannon.
[/url]

its about the best book on the subject. You could also send pics to Royal Armouries Fort Nelson.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mark! I will make some better pics later today.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If that broke, it broke very cleanly. I'm not an expert in the area, but it would appear to be the appropriate length for a mortar, rather than a cannon that lost its muzzle. What was the seller able to tell you about it?
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I'm thinking a small bombard type thing. One sold yesterday....
[url]
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-cat...6bce[/url]

not quite the same thing the hoops are actually there to fix it onto the 'later' carriage. No other pics and I only bid online so didn't see it.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 8:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hang on, I missed the pic of the other end. That makes it a breech loader, and a biggie at that. Still very nice. Lots of those at Les Invalides and in a few other museums with siege connections. Malta and Rhodes spring to mind.

Its a lovely thing.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately i can not open the link😏. I bought the cannon from a guy who kept it in his shed for over 40 years. It was found in Nijmegen, a city not far from where a live. Also bought three mortar balls from him. Much younger than the cannon ofcourse The biggest one with a impresive 27cm in diameter.


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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ive just bought some stuff from Nijmegen, truly streets are paved with iron!
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 220

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

M Hermes wrote:
Unfortunately i can not open the link😏


The link is including the "[/url]" characters when you click it, giving you the "404" message - well, at least that was my experience upon first clicking it. If you eliminate these extra characters in your browser, you should be able to see the page. Shows a nice little ca 15thC cannon with a full carriage.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-cat...6bce

should do it.

The barrel might be ok. The rest is modern. Look in the de Vries book, it really is the bible on such things.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, UK
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like a breech loader to me and not broken at all.

Next you are going to tell us you paid 30 Euro for it!

Good buy.


Tod

www.todsworkshop.com
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www.instagram.com/todsworkshop
www.facebook.com/TodTodeschini
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 29 Mar, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Looks like a breech loader to me and not broken at all.

Next you are going to tell us you paid 30 Euro for it!

Good buy.


Tod


Yes it is a breech loader. If you look closely at the back of the cannon (look at the pic), you can see a ring that is forged in, with a smaller hole in it. They would put the chamber against it. So when the powderchamber was placed , it was inserted 1,5cm into the cannon.



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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What would be the best way to conserve this piece? The bore is a bit rusty and the former owner has painted the outside black.
Is it ok to use linseed oil on the rusty parts?
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 1:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now you definitely need to be talking to a museum or conservation specialist. Don't go slapping stuff on or listen to anyone on here that doesn't have the right qualifications.

All oils and waxes will seal it, its what you are sealing in with them and what happens to the oils and wax over time that's the thing. bearing in mind that a lot of conservation time , esp on metals, is spent taking off the oils, waxes, vaselines and goodness knows what of previous well intentioned people.*

Over here we have a fair few people but I've asked Dr Arne Koets who used to be at the Dutch Army museum who might be best to talk to.

*Read the James Mann's stuff on his discovery of the Italian armours at Mantua.

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mark for the advice! Think im going to contact the Dutch army museum.

Here some pics of the bisiness end. Im in doubt if the pieces of metal sticking out of the edge are caused by manufacturing or, as my first thought, where caused when a piece broke of?



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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's part of the folded back internal structure that have broken away. The staves forming the tube are left a bit proud and hammered back, its some of the end that's come off as its a bit weak.

That's the muzzle end. the other, with the recessed area, is where the breech pot fits in.

How yours was made here, look at how closely some of the features match yours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYWDuXadosA

Sadly two of that exact type were also in last weekends auction and i bottled it. Would have been nice to have, but I have to eat!

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thats a very nice Youtube movie! Explains a lot!
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd ascribe the zig zag designs to a more rustic artisan. Just a feeling but if it was contract/arsenal made, they probably wouldn't have bothered.

nearest i can find to yours...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_artill...entury.jpg

Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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M Hermes




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 5:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes i saw those two, it's a pity that it does not mention where they are on display.
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 30 Mar, 2015 5:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Think the picture is credited, Cluny Museum, Paris
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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