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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Is anyone else having trouble with rust?         Reply with quote

I bought a NextGen Sempach sometime last year and absolutely love the sword with one exception I can't stop the hilt components from rusting. When it arrived it had a tad bit of rust on it which I finally was able to remove, but now it seems like everytime I take it out to practice my form it developes rust once more on the cross. It isn't humid in my area, and I never take it out in damp weather. I wipe it down and oil it regularly, but despite all the extra care that only the sword receives, it still rusts. What am I doing wrong? I've tried changing oils and that hasn't helped either. Is it just natural that you can't ever keep a sword from developing a love affair with this stuff?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Ryan
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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Several factors contribute to excessive corrosion. Obviously the first is humidity but you could also have very acidic sweat. The acids from your skin can play havoc on steel. I have the same problem but much less in the winter months. The humidity in the summer months is terrible here since I don't have air conditioning. It really is a constant battle. The only suggestion I have is too wipe the sword clean every time you handle it and apply a new coat of oil. I would also recommend polishing your sword once a week as this will help remove the nasty stuff you can't see. For polishing I use Metal Glow and for oiling I use CLP Breakfree.

Hope that helps

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think it would be my sweat as I always wear gloves, but the polishing idea I didn't think of.
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Alexi Goranov
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan A. C. wrote:
I don't think it would be my sweat as I always wear gloves, but the polishing idea I didn't think of.


Here is an "insane" idea: if your gloves are leather, could it be that the leather is treated with something (commercially) that causes the steel to rust? What if you try practicing without gloves, does it still rust?

Alexi
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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Ryan A. C. wrote:
I don't think it would be my sweat as I always wear gloves, but the polishing idea I didn't think of.


Here is an "insane" idea: if your gloves are leather, could it be that the leather is treated with something (commercially) that causes the steel to rust? What if you try practicing without gloves, does it still rust?

Alexi



Your idea may not be so insane. It could be something in the gloves Worried

Gary Grzybek
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Nate C.




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexi Goranov wrote:
Ryan A. C. wrote:
I don't think it would be my sweat as I always wear gloves, but the polishing idea I didn't think of.


Here is an "insane" idea: if your gloves are leather, could it be that the leather is treated with something (commercially) that causes the steel to rust? What if you try practicing without gloves, does it still rust?

Alexi


Or just the accumulated sweat in them? I also have been known to sweat THROUGH gloves Eek! Worried Big Grin so that might be your problem too.

Just a thought,

Nate C.

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Chris Goerner




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While it may be a bit less orthodox than oil, I have been using wax to protect my blades for the past several years. Actually, the product I use is Snowseal. Made to treat leather, it has a beeswax base with oils mixed in. I liked the water protection it gave to my leather scabbards, cartridge boxes, etc. and thought I would try it on a sword blade. I rub it in good, buff off the excess, and forget about it.

Unlike the oil, it doesn't get all over everything. It is also more durable than oil. And, since it is made to go on leather, it won't have any negative effect on your scabbard, even if the scabbard it is wood lined.

I have also used the paste wax made for wood finishes on swords and knives. It is even more durable than the snowseal, but does leave a glossy appearance that may not be to everyones taste.

Also, I have heard of folks heating the metal with a hairdryer before application of either oil or wax. The idea being, the warm metal makes the oil or wax more fluid, allowing it to soak in better. Practically speaking, I don't know how much of a difference this makes (if any), but if you are having persistent rust problems, it might be worth a try.

Chris

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wax idea(s) sound interesting, maybe even great for armour before taking it outside for some activity: What if it rains ..... GULP! (Car wax ?)

I have a friend who can rust steel by just walking into the room: He seems to drip acid from his pores like some Superhero.
(Rustman: Was called acid boy when young! ......... Joke.) O.K. exagerating a bit to make the point.

I think it was so bad his Nickel plated hanguns were down to bare metal! So don't underestimate the acid skin problem, also even if you don't have this problem make sure to wipe everything off if a friend touches your swords.

Rust does seen to be a mystery sometimes, I have an old African spear in the basement that's been there for more than 30 years and it shows little or no rust: It still has it's strait from the forge dark finish (Patina).

On the other hand a box full of steel washer rusted to a solid mass in the same basement. (Well a little water dripping into the box from a focet sort of explains that.

It would be good to hear from the people who have a full warehouse or workshop of steel products like Albion, A & A, and armour makers like Allan of Mercenary's Tailor: They must have to deal with this problem all the time, and they may have advice about what to use and maybe more important what to avoid that might seem like a good idea but could cause problems.

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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We use WD40 or Breakfree . These will evaporate some over time and we'll end up with light rust patches once in a while when stuffs in storage. We clean off the rust and re-apply the penetrant. What we've noticed over the years is that items that have been around for a while (had several cleanings and re-treatings with penetrant) just stop rusting. The best guess I have is that the WD40/Breakfree soaks in over time and repeated applications and after a while shy of running around in a rain storm the stuff stays clean. A factor could be that when we're removing the rust we'll use a fine wire cup or a plastic bristle cup the friction from which warms the metal ( i think it actually says something about doing this on the WD40 can) and helps the penetrant sink in . The effects of the grease and oil on human skin on metal can be dramatic. I don't know if they're still on here but I posted pics a while back (summer i think) of the back of a tasset we have from the mid to late 16th century that had finger prints rust etched into the back of the top and bottom lame produced by exactly that.

All that being said, on its journey through time your sword will aquire the light pitting and that age and use must produce so perhaps your just getting started on its "character". 100-150 years from now your blade will most likely look more like the originals we all admire than the new pieces we lust after now which is kind of neat if you think about it. Tommorows antique today! Philosophical meandering aside some one else may have an idea but you may be stuck just reapplying whatever your using till it sinks in enough.
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 7:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I bought the gloves from revival clothing. As a matter of fact I didn't use any gloves for awhile when I first got the sword and it didn't seem to affect the rust collecting zones at all as I wipe the sword down every time I handle it. I doubt it is the gloves anyway as it is the top of the cross that seems to rust. I figured it was the way I have the sword displayed so I reoil the hilt more often in this area. It seems to be coming back to the areas that were rusted when the sword first arrived. Might it be deep in the surface of the metal? I remove all that I see and check it under good lighting to be sure, but could it already have gotten deep in the metal?

In regards to pastes, I handle my Sempach quite often as it is my favorite sword right now. Would waxes and pastes be a good idea?
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allan Senefelder wrote:

All that being said, on its journey through time your sword will aquire the light pitting and that age and use must produce so perhaps your just getting started on its "character". 100-150 years from now your blade will most likely look more like the originals we all admire than the new pieces we lust after now which is kind of neat if you think about it. Tommorows antique today! Philosophical meandering aside some one else may have an idea but you may be stuck just reapplying whatever your using till it sinks in enough.
I didn't notice this part of your post when I made my reply. Maybe your right I should just do the best I can to keep it in working order and forgot about this? I'm very OCD, but this might be what happens if the polishing doesn't work out. Where is the pic of the sword you were talking about I love looking at the antiques!
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Kenneth Enroth




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is it only this sword that rust? How often do you maintain it? Once a day, once a week? Do you store it on the wall or in a scabbard?
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those sword I bring along to demonstrations that get handeled by perhaps a hundred sweaty and eager hands, I treat in advance with ordinary car wax. This seems to build enough of protective surface that it minimizes the need for surface restoration afterwards.

I usually apply a thin layer of light oil on top of the wax as well.

Very virgin iron/steel surface seems to be more sensitive than a surface that has developed a slight darkening after a while.

Personally I think the swords look better after a year or two, when there are a few dark spots and the steel has become a bit deeper in the tone.

It is a good practise to keep the sword in good maintenance however, but it is also good to keep in mind that the materials used are not stainless, and will change slightly over time. If taken care of the sword will age with grace.

Hope you do not become too frustrated with that rust problem.
If the problem persists, try this:
Cover the blade with protective adhesive tape. This is important. Be sure you leave no gap showing of the blade where it meets the guard.
Then work the underside of the cross with a fine abrasive paper, 600 or 800 grit lubricated with oil. Do not work through the layer of protective tape.
Then take a grey scotch brite pad and brek up the scratches left from the emery paper.
It is important that you do not touch the blade with the emery paper or scotch brite, since that will produce ugly scratches across the length of the blade. We do not like that...

Now you have restored the surfaceto a new virgin state. If these was some incusions or impurities in the surface before they should now be removed. (I cannot think what that could have been, but this is making sure there is only clean iron/steel showing.)
Wipe the new surface dry and make it clean. Apply carwax (or some other protective wax) and let it set. Polish away excess wax.

If you keep having problems after this you can be sure it is from how you use the sword, how it is handeled or stored. Look at possible causes for problems around the sword.

Good luck!
Peter
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Alex Oster




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This will get a few gasps here....

Clear laqucer.

yep, I said it. I noticed a long time back when I had ordered the bone handled swept hilt rapier from MRL that it had a decent coating of clear laqucer on the blade (unfortunetly not the hilt). This would have worked out great as I never use it beyond a few times a year, but unfortunetly the one time I demonstraited a main-gauche parry it scuff marks all over it. So, if you don't plan on doing anything but picking it up and handling it (i.e. no cutting) then it has worked out great.

I applied a uniform layer to my big deltin 2-hander since everyone kept going up and fondling it and leaving fingerprints, and I dont do any cutting with it either so its a perfect win for me...

I also touched a thin layer on my new crecey hilt because it was doing the same thing your sempach is, and I got tired of rubbing out the rust. Since I use it though I left the blade alone, and made sure the laqucer was a thin layer.

I am not saying do this on all your stuff, but consider it for inexspensive wallhangers that you don't plan on cutting with. and, heck, 2000 grit will take it off when if change your mind...

Just my sleepy thoughts-

The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alex Oster wrote:
This will get a few gasps here....

Clear laqucer.


Yep, I agree. If you still want to use the blade, you can mask it off as Peter says, mask off the grip, and lacquer/varnish only the guard and pommel. It'll be durable for sure.

I've used Varathane spray-on varnish before (it was recommended by Art Elwell).

Happy

ChadA

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Embrace the rust
-Sean

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David McElrea




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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 8:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Love the rust
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan I was just making a general comment about the period originals we all see in books and museums . We do have a couple of originals ( two Sinclair sabers ) in our collection though.
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Allan Senefelder
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Theres pics of both the sabers floating around here somewhere from back in the summer when we got them. I'll try and remember to throw up a pic this weekend.
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Ryan A. C.





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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jan, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

car wax....well I'll be, never would've thought of that.....I'll try that out it seems like a good idea to me and heck if Peter does it. Happy

Someone asked if it is just the Sempach? Yeah, just that sword.

Thanks for all the posts guys. You've been a big help.

Cheers*
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