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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: badly innacurate history movies, that we still love...         Reply with quote

ok, to start this ball rolling, im going with

gladiator by ridley scott gladiation, i THInk holds a special place in that it made me get into weapons and armour, by wondering 'who would win in a fight' and this making me want to research who had the longest sword or the widest or lightest shield, or the most armour and so it went from there...finding matthew amt's roman page around 2004 was a huge leap forward

kingdom of heaven it just looks nice...

and the infamous films of mel giibson, namely braveheart and the patriot

braveheart is well we can go on about the innacuraciesbut it;s still fun, the patriot is actually one of my favories in a way, especially the battle scenes...

i dont know if this counts as not historically accurate but i also love the sharpe series too..

oh and king arthur (the one with kiera knightly and the duel gladius wielding lancelot) i do kinda love, or i loved the first time...

(i assumed it was historically accurate because i knew at the time king arthur didnt live around the time of the plate armoured middle ages but was semi roman and since the movie was in the late roman period,,,,,)
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To each their own taste, of course, but I can't stand The Patriot. The sheer idiocy of every aspect of it (well, apart from the fairly nice period costumes) is just so overwhelming. It's like a whole movie made entirely of everything that was wrong with Braveheart, distilled and concentrated - Braveheart was already stupid but kinda fun, but The Patriot tosses all the fun in order to double down with wagon loads more of the stupid.

King Arthur is also bone stupid and about as historical as The Flintstones, but what really grated about that one was the way it was marketed as the "true story behind the legend", when the only tenuous link it had to either was that one historian had hypothesized that a historical "King" Arthur might have been a Sarmatian knight. I could froth on about that for a while, but I doubt you'd want to hear it. Happy

However... I do quite enjoy Apocalypto, The Last of the Mohicans, The Messenger, Rob Roy. The 13th Warrior, and even 300 (though the graphic novel was better) so who am I to judge! Plus a whole slew of westerns (spaghetti and otherwise) and chanbara. Also, The Ten Commandments, if only because Yul Brynner is DA MAN. Big Grin

(In fact, we might as well just list every historical movie we like, or as near as makes no difference. Historical advisors are hired almost entirely just so they can be listed in the credits - and that's not even hyperbole, believe it or not!)

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

13th Warrior is still one of my favourite movies.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Bryan Heff




Location: Philadelphia
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like Kingdom of Heaven for exactly the same reason...it just LOOKs good. I bought the blueray and the scene in the woods with the snow really pops off the screen. Just a really good looking movie.

Patriot I liked from the clothing standpoint as well...but this was Mel Gibson at his egotistical worst IMO....its gets some serious eye rolling going from me.

I still love Excalibur. Its just a classic fantasy movie in my mind, also parts of it look fantastic as well. That blood red sunset at the end and the casting of the sword back in with the music...awesome.

Last of the Mohicans is one of my all time favorite movies, could be #1.

Arn the Knight Templar I really like. The full length movie is really pretty good.

The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Last of the Mohicans, Kingdom of Heaven, 13th Warrior, and 1492 are all great stories with fair to great acting and some beautiful filming, apart from their historical inaccuracies or bewilderings. I can watch the first three any time. 300 I can't stand at all, though I do enjoy the comic. I could live happily never watching Gladiator or Braveheart again, but I admit to loving them both when younger.

I didn't like First Knight much at all as a 17 year old arthurian. I think it would warp my mind to see it again now..

If we can open it to TV, in this order I enjoy Vikings, Rome, Spartacus, but I would propose the reverse order for historical accuracy. All are great shows. Hard to judge GoT for accuracy given it's fantasy, but there are many things that just don't make any sense.

Deadwood is great too. Lots of good westerns. Should I really start on these?

There's a big difference in judging obvious fantasy such as GoT and LOTR to more historically derived works, but there are some things like such a mash-up of sword styles or things that just are bizarre yet work for the feel of the fantasy.

Many more good movies and films out there. These are all relatively recent.


Last edited by J. Nicolaysen on Thu 19 Feb, 2015 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

300? im kinda meh, fight scenes are amazing but thats it, in fact i actually refused to see it on the grounds that i threw a moinor fit nin the fact the spartans on the poster wernt wearing any of the typial hoplite armour, it was around then i had read 'the wars of the ancient greeks with specified EXACTLY how well armoured a hoplite was

actually if i must list my FAVORITE, 'historical' movie, it would have to be the movie Troy, with Eric Bana and brad Pitt

fight scenes, great, mostly.. i liked that they changed the cause of the conflict, taking out the gods involvement and turning it into a more political machination that felt somewhat plausible... more plausible than 3 goddesses fighting amongst themselves over who was the prettiest

the costumes, i was delighted to see they didnt make the mistake pf helen of troy and made everyone wear classical ra hoplite outfit..
the fact thte costume and set design was actually a hodgepodge of different bronze age cultures would look jarring to an expert biut would provide excellent inspiration for a 'bronze age hero' inspired LARP warband/ group

achille's fight choreography as a joy to watch and i used that style incessantly when designing fantasy characters.

(and i loved the myrmidon's psuedo testudo during the coastal assault scene)

brian cox and sean bean were, as usual, amazing. and so was brad pitt (initially i had reservations about brad pitt as achilles, the reason being i assumed all greek heros had to be big and muscular hulks.. like arnie.. but learning that achilles was supposedly light on his feet...i enjoyed it)



im also gonna put 300: rise of an empire on my list even if i havent seen it, primarily because we almost NEVER see greek style ship to ship combat in the movies nowadayhs, the last time we saw it done on any scale was cleopatra several decates early


im also gonna include disneys hercules as the occasional guilty pleasure... but, i blame it for my initially skewed view of greek mythology, for example i was shocked to learn that hera was actually largely evil, not a doting mother to hercules.



i'll also put alexander fr being, as far as i understand a very good reconstruction of macedonian battle formations and tactics although im gonna guess there are major flaws there too the other stuff such as alexanders descent into madness was. kinda interesting, possibly
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd like to see Troy again and see how I like it this time around. I do remember the Achilles fight scene as very dynamic and well choreographed. That despite the LEAPING ATTACK!!! so beloved also by Sparatacus (TV) directors.

Forgot to say there's a wealth of great movies from Asia, from Hero to Crouching Tiger, to various chanbara. I just don't have time right now to list all of my favorites. Despite their fanciful history, a lot of them are very good story and films.

I wonder if there would be interest in a "feature" on movies and TV here. Seems like that is the dominant way people get into swords and stuff any more. I would propose a regular "review" type format with a guest writer or two (members of myArmoury of course) whose familiarity with the time period in the film is well known and we could break down the movie or show by historical accuracy for time, weapons and armor, fighting, and of course good acting/story/other film things. So, for example, I or somebody else would "watch" a movie like Troy with Dan Howard and Matthew Amt, and hopefully all would survive, and have a nice review with particular attention to historical accuracy, but also whether it's a good movie. We'd type it all up and post it on Features page. Perhaps even two "grades", one for movie and one for history.

Basically a mash-up of AV Club or Cinefantastique and myArmoury. Any interest?
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Rim Andries




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To avoid making an endless post I will limit my choices to swashbuckling films, and exclude westerns, warpics, fantasy films and series. I'm a huge movie buff so here goes:

Hell Yes:
Last of the Mohicans, Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven (despite Orlando Bloom), Braveheart, Apocalypto, Alatriste (better in the accuracy department), Rob Roy (ditto), The Duellists (ditto), Monty Python, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Seven Samurai and many more I'm forgetting.

Yes:
Mongol, Warlords, Hero, Bang Rajan, Troy, Alexander, Arn, 13th Warrior, 300, Robin Hood (the one with Russel Crowe), Master and Commander, Flesh and Blood, The last Samurai, Exodus, The Patriot, Iron Clad, Solomon Kane, A Knights Tale, Tristan and Isolde, Beowulf , Centurion and many more I'm forgetting

No:
Fearless, The three musketeers (with Reed and the one with Sutherland), Robin Hood (Kevin Costner), Man in the Iron Mask, Sequel of 300, Black Death, The Eagle and many more I'm forgetting

Hell No:
The three musketeers (last one), Excalibur, King Arthur (atrocious on every level), Outcast (retarded, despite Nic Cage Wink), The Last Legion 10.000 BC and many more I am forgetting

Sir Dreamin'


Last edited by Rim Andries on Fri 06 Feb, 2015 7:48 am; edited 4 times in total
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Kuo Xie




Location: Chicago, IL
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Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another vote for "Kingdom of Heaven". Leaving aside the historical inaccuracies (agnostic crusaders, armor worn at the banquet table, that weird "flip" nasal the Hospitaller wears, etc.) the costuming just looks very cool. Nice to see a movie set during the golden age of mail armor.

"Arthur" with Clive Owen. There is a scene when Arthur's war band faces a horde of enemies across a frozen lake. Dressed all in black with their cloaks flowing in the wind. Badass scene that was wasted on a lousy movie.

All the fights in "Troy" were exciting to watch and did an excellent job of visual storytelling, although I doubt they were very realistic. Nice to see some spear and shield action instead of the same old sword fights.

The Chinese wuxia genre pretty much falls completely into this category as well. Totally inaccurate while being really awesome to watch. Great example: "Hero". Two warriors taking on a city full of soldiers, swords splitting raindrops in slow motion, 1000 arrows being used to execute one man, flimsy wushu jian splitting shields and chopping spears, crazy shit like that.
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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also good: Ben Hur, Spartacus, Barry Lyndon
Sir Dreamin'
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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lastly I hope Michiel de Ruyter will be good. Apparently HEMA folks were involved in production. But I fear the worst: we
Dutchies are pretty good at making TV shows, but sadly our films fail to impress most of the time. As an absolute cinema nut this aggravates me to no end.

@ J.Nicolaysen, that's a bloody good idea. I would definitely be up for that.

Also, since I am sure very few have ever heard of this movie, let alone seen it, I would highly recommend Bang Rajan. It is a brutal roller coaster of a film. You will have a blast. Guaranteed!

Sir Dreamin'
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Pieter B.





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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rim Andries wrote:
To avoid making an endless post I will limit my choices to swashbuckling films, and exclude westerns, warpics, fantasy films and series. I'm a huge movie buff so here goes:

Hell Yes:
Last of the Mohicans, Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven (despite Orlando Bloom), Braveheart, Apocalypto, Alatriste (better in the accuracy department), Rob Roy (ditto), The Duellists (ditto), Monty Python, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Seven Samurai and many more I'm forgetting.

Yes:
Mongol, Warlords, Hero, Bang Rajan, Troy, Alexander, Arn, 13th Warrior, 300, Robin Hood (the one with Russel Crowe), Master and Commander, Flesh and Blood, The last Samurai, Exodus, The Patriot, Iron Clad, Solomon Kane, A Knights Tale, Tristan and Isolde, Beowulf , Centurion and many more I'm forgetting

No:
Fearless, The three musketeers (with Reed and the one with Sutherland), Robin Hood (Kevin Costner), Man in the Iron Mask, Sequel of 300, Black Death, The Eagle and many more I'm forgetting

Hell No:
The three musketeers (last one), Excalibur, King Arthur (atrocious on every level), Outcast (retarded, despite Nic Cage Wink), The Last Legion 10.000 BC and many more I am forgetting


I don't see how Mongol is better than Excalibur or Robin Hood (Costner) to be honest.

Also I haven't see the Patriot since I was 16 or so, what was wrong with it again?
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pieter B. wrote:
Also I haven't see the Patriot since I was 16 or so, what was wrong with it again?

Put short - very, very short - all soldiers and military leaders are complete idiots stuck in their ill-defined but blatantly nonsensical ways, except for one Englishman who is counterproductively EEEEEEEEEVIL and Mel Gibson who is Righteous Asskicker McChrist and wins the whole war.

Basically, it's for the American Revolution what Patch Adams is for, well, the actual Hunter "Patch" Adams, MD: all around insulting for everyone involved.

PS. Plus it's full of really flagrant continuity errors. I mean, they should have fired the script supervisor. Out of a cannon. And then sued the gory, smoking remains.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Rim Andries




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pieter B. wrote:
Rim Andries wrote:
To avoid making an endless post I will limit my choices to swashbuckling films, and exclude westerns, warpics, fantasy films and series. I'm a huge movie buff so here goes:

Hell Yes:
Last of the Mohicans, Gladiator, Kingdom of Heaven (despite Orlando Bloom), Braveheart, Apocalypto, Alatriste (better in the accuracy department), Rob Roy (ditto), The Duellists (ditto), Monty Python, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Seven Samurai and many more I'm forgetting.

Yes:
Mongol, Warlords, Hero, Bang Rajan, Troy, Alexander, Arn, 13th Warrior, 300, Robin Hood (the one with Russel Crowe), Master and Commander, Flesh and Blood, The last Samurai, Exodus, The Patriot, Iron Clad, Solomon Kane, A Knights Tale, Tristan and Isolde, Beowulf , Centurion and many more I'm forgetting

No:
Fearless, The three musketeers (with Reed and the one with Sutherland), Robin Hood (Kevin Costner), Man in the Iron Mask, Sequel of 300, Black Death, The Eagle and many more I'm forgetting

Hell No:
The three musketeers (last one), Excalibur, King Arthur (atrocious on every level), Outcast (retarded, despite Nic Cage Wink), The Last Legion 10.000 BC and many more I am forgetting


I don't see how Mongol is better than Excalibur or Robin Hood (Costner) to be honest.

Also I haven't see the Patriot since I was 16 or so, what was wrong with it again?


It isn't really. I just had more fun watching it. It is also the most recent film I saw in the "sword genre", it caught me by surprise and felt fresh and new to me, filled with images of a culture I knew very little about. It has a head start in that regard. Robin Hood and Excalibur failed to withstand the test of time for me, though I admit I might have been a bit harsh. Especially on Excalibur. That should have been a no, instead of hell no. Maybe Mongol will suffer the same faith, if I were to see it again a few years from now.

I voted yes on the Patriot. A flawed and cheesy film, but entertaining nonetheless. Mel Gibson delivers as always.

Oh yeah, forgot about 1492: yes and first knight: hell no (let that take the place of Excalibur Wink)

Sir Dreamin'
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Rim Andries




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Pieter B. wrote:
Also I haven't see the Patriot since I was 16 or so, what was wrong with it again?

Put short - very, very short - all soldiers and military leaders are complete idiots stuck in their ill-defined but blatantly nonsensical ways, except for one Englishman who is counterproductively EEEEEEEEEVIL and Mel Gibson who is Righteous Asskicker McChrist and wins the whole war.

Basically, it's for the American Revolution what Patch Adams is for, well, the actual Hunter "Patch" Adams, MD: all around insulting for everyone involved.

PS. Plus it's full of really flagrant continuity errors. I mean, they should have fired the script supervisor. Out of a cannon. And then sued the gory, smoking remains.


Haha you made me giggle. It is true. I still like it for what it is though. Perhaps this will change as time goes on. Once I loved Robin Hood with Costner, now I can only see what is wrong with it.

Sir Dreamin'
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Eric W. Norenberg





Joined: 18 Jul 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really do love Kingdom of Heaven. Sure, loaded with historical inaccuracies, and all kinds of suppositions about the medieval mindset, but it looks so beautiful, the score is flawless, and the action is well done. Plenty of cracks show through Orlando's acting, I guess, he's pretty wooden in a few scenes, but the rest of the cast is amazing (seeing all those actors together is a treat), even the smaller parts are cast and acted well, and the film develops the other main characters well enough (especially the director's cut) to be enjoyable. It's okay by me if the lead doesn't outshine the rest of the characters, it almost puts me into Balian's POV. It's one of the few films that pulls me in and I don't fall away from it until the end, no matter how many times I watch it.
The duel between Balian and Guy at the end is one of my favorite film sword fights. Full of anachronisms I suppose, but it is highly kinetic, doesn't rely too much on those Hollywood static blocks, and I like how the fighters both kind of fall apart toward the end, shaky from adrenalin and too desperate to be swashbuckle-y.

I just caught Solomon Kane and Ironclad back to back (thank you Netflix!). The look of first half of Solomon K. (before it goes all CGI demons and hellfire) reminded me a bit of KoH, and the quieter moments in the Scott/Crowe Robin Hood, beautiful cinematography. The only moment I really enjoyed in Ironclad was Paul Giamatti nose-to-sternum with Vladimir Kulich, dressing him down... Kulich is so typically employed here but Giamatti was such a great surprise as King John.

I do love 13th Warrior. So out there... less an adaptation of Beowulf than a Viking "Magnificent Seven". Viking cowboys! With Vladimir Kulich as Yul Brynner!
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Baard H




Location: Norway
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Feb, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Hood (Scott/Crowe). As an archer I keep coming back to it, I don't know if other's feel the same way, but every time they loose an arrow it feels as if they actually fired a weapon rather than a movie-prop (if you discount that the arrows are stopped by un-armoured flesh...).

Arn. I really liked the books, it is right in my era of interest and you have to have some Scandinavian unity pride (besides, its not the worst movie in relation to accuracy I've seen by a long shot.)

Speaking of Scandinavian pride: I'd like to mention Max Manus (Norwegian movie set in WWII following the real life events of war hero Max Manus) but it might be a bit to modern and riddled with to few inaccuracies to be viable here...

Troy, Kingdom of Heaven, Rome, Mongol, A Knights Tale.

Blackadder. Every list of historical media you like has to have Blackadder listed...
...And Robin Hood, Men in Tights...

Hornblower and Sharpe. I wasn't really interested in this era (there's something about Napoleonic tactics that put me off) before I saw Hornblower, but it was good fun to watch. I saw Sharpe as the description on the box said "Hornblower on land". Made me like the era. I have to get the second box soon...

The Musketeers (that newest tv-series). Yes I know (or I think I do?) the clothes are off and a hell of a lot of other stuff, but still. Nice to see them portrayed less clean and spotless than in the 1993 film. haven't seen the newest movie and been a bit to long since I saw the Iron Mask to remember if I would still like it...

Pirates of the Caribbean (first movie). What can I say? I was young and it was new?

Edit: Oh, and a good Clint Eastwood western is never unwelcome.


I hate to grudgingly like Braveheart and Vikings.

300 and 13th Warrior I really can't stand...

At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mćki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 1:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rim Andries wrote:
Haha you made me giggle. It is true. I still like it for what it is though. Perhaps this will change as time goes on. Once I loved Robin Hood with Costner, now I can only see what is wrong with it.

You know, I used to really like Mel Gibson...

*sigh*

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 2:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i wasnt too sure to include robin hood men in tioghts since, well it's a mel brooks film who's whole presence of being is to broadside and poke fun at the entire medieval/ robin hood movie genre. like every other movie he made really



i'll also include disneys mulan, which has fantastical elements in terms of eddy murphey as the dragon and the spirits BUT aside from that, it's a VERY good film for the genre and is delightful in how it portrays chinese art styles, of course we'd find issues with the combat, but the story is amazing

i might also include Brave, as well, it's a unique, if somewhat anachronistic look at celtic and scottish society and i'd almost rather that, then braveheart, even the fantasy elements are very closely tied to celtic mythology and pre christian spirituality.. not to mention it is absolutely stunning visually

and for the archers, merida's final shot in slow motion during the archery contest, showing every moment of a bows release slowed down and executed brilliantly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EIFWjLYNWA

as for 300, i'm gonna drop it even further down my list because, not because of the movie, which is, OK at best. but what it represents and the effect it;s had onour public conciousness.

there is a generation of kids growing up believing that the greeks looked and fought like THAT, not to mention a lot of adults too overhyping the spartans like the ninja boom in the 80's

it is a decent bit infuriating
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jabberwocky.

The best depiction of a medieval city committed to celluloid.
The armourer's workshop is excellent as well.



Excalibur shouldn't really be included in a list of historical film; it was never meant to be one.
It's Boorman's vision of Mallory's 'Morte D'Arthur', filmed through a pre-Raphaelite lens.

Most of it still stands up well but it could do with being half an hour shorter.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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