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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Crusader armor and clothing         Reply with quote

I would like to start assembling a set of crusader armor.
However, due to over-dramatization of such armor, its hard to find historical details on the armor.
If anyone would be able to help,
I would like to know what is the historically correct armor of a crusader.

Most specifically a late 12th century to early 13th century Templar armor.

Did they wear any sort of plate other than the helm?
Did they use gauntlets?
Steel boots or leather foot wear?
etc.

Thanks for the help!
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Eric Allen




Location: Texas
Joined: 04 Feb 2006

Posts: 207

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Crusaders from western Europe wore, in general, the same armor as their secular counterparts at the time. if anything, perhaps a little out-of-fashion, as they often recycled equipment.

The only real thing to set them apart would be the colors and cross. Brother-knights from the Order of the Temple generally wore a white surcoat with a red cross (and their sergeants black with a red cross) when in armor.

The Templar order's statutes from 1165 imply a (chain)mail hauberk, mail leggings, a helmet (think "norman"-style or a kettlehelm), a shield, lance, sword, and dagger. Your stated time-period is a little early for gauntlets and much in the way of plate armor accompanying the mail.
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric Allen wrote:
Crusaders from western Europe wore, in general, the same armor as their secular counterparts at the time. if anything, perhaps a little out-of-fashion, as they often recycled equipment.

The only real thing to set them apart would be the colors and cross. Brother-knights from the Order of the Temple generally wore a white surcoat with a red cross (and their sergeants black with a red cross) when in armor.

The Templar order's statutes from 1165 imply a (chain)mail hauberk, mail leggings, a helmet (think "norman"-style or a kettlehelm), a shield, lance, sword, and dagger. Your stated time-period is a little early for gauntlets and much in the way of plate armor accompanying the mail.


So basically it would be all mail, with the tunic on top?/
Do you know if they wore anything on the feet other than the mail?
It seems strange to me that they would go into battle with basically metal socks haha
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Ben Coomer




Location: Colorado
Joined: 06 Sep 2011

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 9:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

Here's a bunch of effigies from the time period that you are looking at.

Going by them, chain hauberks and leggings, often extending onto the foot and hand, but some look like a mail mitten.

Not seeing a lot of plate, but a few have poleyns or coulters (knee and elbow protection) but not much else.

The head are almost universally protected with chain coifs, but undoubtedly they had other forms like great helms or kettlehelms for actual battle.

So for your templar, it sounds like as much maile as you can muster.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let's let the artwork do the talking. All of the images are from circa 1190-1210 AD.

































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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Coomer wrote:
http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

Here's a bunch of effigies from the time period that you are looking at.

Going by them, chain hauberks and leggings, often extending onto the foot and hand, but some look like a mail mitten.

Not seeing a lot of plate, but a few have poleyns or coulters (knee and elbow protection) but not much else.

The head are almost universally protected with chain coifs, but undoubtedly they had other forms like great helms or kettlehelms for actual battle.

So for your templar, it sounds like as much maile as you can muster.



Thanks a lot! this is both interesting and very informative!
It really shows how much the armor of the crusaders is dramatized in popular culture.

Usually you see them with plate on their hands and feet, maybe some greaves and bracers.

But from these pictures it seems that its all mail and cloth.

Do you know if they would wear anything under the mail at the feet? or would they just put their feet in there and as stated before, wear it like a metal sock?
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Let's let the artwork do the talking. All of the images are from circa 1190-1210 AD.



































Oh wow, this is kind of blowing my mind, as i said on the previous post you can see how the crusaders armor has been supremely dramatized in popular culture.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roberto,

The other thing that will be worth your while is to educate yourself about mail armour. You might think that all mail armour is identical, but nothing could be further from the truth. Mail is one of those things that seems so simple, and yet most manufacturers get it wrong; in fact, some would argue that unless you purchase custom mail from a handful of expert mail makers, you cannot hope to get something reasonably accurate.

While you may nevertheless want to find mail that you can purchase and use, it makes sense to be better informed about it so you can avoid wasting a significant sum of money on something that looks really bad or functions terribly. There's not a lot of surviving mail from your time period of interest, but generally, you should be using mail with fairly flattened, rather than rounded, rings. Also, the mail should be constructed of alternating rows of riveted rings and solid rings, instead of all riveted mail, or, worse, all butted mail.

I recommend spending a lot of time reading here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...historical

and here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Roberto,

The other thing that will be worth your while is to educate yourself about mail armour. You might think that all mail armour is identical, but nothing could be further from the truth. Mail is one of those things that seems so simple, and yet most manufacturers get it wrong; in fact, some would argue that unless you purchase custom mail from a handful of expert mail makers, you cannot hope to get something reasonably accurate.

While you may nevertheless want to find mail that you can purchase and use, it makes sense to be better informed about it so you can avoid wasting a significant sum of money on something that looks really bad or functions terribly. There's not a lot of surviving mail from your time period of interest, but generally, you should be using mail with flattened, rather than rounded rings. Also, the mail should be constructed of alternating rows of riveted rings and solid rings, instead of all riveted mail, or, worse, all butted mail.

I recommend spending a lot of time reading here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...historical

and here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29331


What would be your personal recommendation for the specifications that i should look for?
The only place I have found that I would feel comfortable buying from is Kult of athena

But as you mentioned, i noticed theres alot of technical terms, indicating all the different types.

Thanks for the links! I will begin reading see if I can understand it better.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also Roberto, pay really close attention to the scabbard details and the belt details. Most people make scabbards that look incorrect, especially because they want to make their scabbard look more appropriate with details like crosses and the like. Additionally, modern people love to do leather tooling, but as you can see, it's completely inappropriate for scabbards at this time. Additionally, the style of belt you see here is ubiquitous to the later 12th and early 13th centuries, and yet again, most people will get a more modern shaped leather belt, despite the fact that these don't really start to appear until circa 1230-1240 AD.

If you want your scabbard, belt, and suspension done correctly, go with these images.
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Also Roberto, pay really close attention to the scabbard details and the belt details. Most people make scabbards that look incorrect, especially because they want to make their scabbard look more appropriate with details like crosses and the like. Additionally, modern people love to do leather tooling, but as you can see, it's completely inappropriate for scabbards at this time. Additionally, the style of belt you see here is ubiquitous to the later 12th and early 13th centuries, and yet again, most people will get a more modern shaped leather belt, despite the fact that these don't really start to appear until circa 1230-1240 AD.

If you want your scabbard, belt, and suspension done correctly, go with these images.


Correct me if im wrong, But it seems as if both the belts and the scabbards are very simple compared to some of the other things i have seen online.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roberto E. wrote:


What would be your personal recommendation for the specifications that i should look for?
The only place I have found that I would feel comfortable buying from is Kult of athena


Nothing on Kult of Athena really gets it right as far as mail goes. Really, one of the very best ways to educate yourself is to spend as much time as possible looking at mail, especially what few fragments we have dating to roughly your time period. Just look at it- stare at it- memorize the details, get to know what it really looks like and "feels" like from the images. It's undoubtedly the best way for your to improve your knowledge of what's good and what isn't.

This particular hauberk from Kult of Athena is probably passable for your purposes: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...el+-+Large .

But again, before you commit to buying read more and look at the images for yourself. The worst is to depend upon so-called "experts" online when you have no way of evaluating what they say. Learn for yourself and then you'll know what's what.
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 10:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Roberto E. wrote:


What would be your personal recommendation for the specifications that i should look for?
The only place I have found that I would feel comfortable buying from is Kult of athena


Nothing on Kult of Athena really gets it right as far as mail goes. Really, one of the very best ways to educate yourself is to spend as much time as possible looking at mail, especially what few fragments we have dating to roughly your time period. Just look at it- stare at it- memorize the details, get to know what it really looks like and "feels" like from the images. It's undoubtedly the best way for your to improve your knowledge of what's good and what isn't.

This particular hauberk from Kult of Athena is probably passable for your purposes: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...el+-+Large .

But again, before you commit to buying read more and look at the images for yourself. The worst is to depend upon so-called "experts" online when you have no way of evaluating what they say. Learn for yourself and then you'll know what's what.



Okay, it sounds like chain mail is going to be my biggest obstacle here.

Because i really do want to make this as authentic as possible.
Even if it takes time.

This really helps alot

What else should i look for for authencity
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roberto E. wrote:


Correct me if im wrong, But it seems as if both the belts and the scabbards are very simple compared to some of the other things i have seen online.


Some people get the scabbards right. Many others do not. Very few people get correct belts for this time period. It all comes down to really paying close attention to details. Have a look at this scabbard for an Albion Senlac, a sword that is reasonably appropriate for your time period: http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/MH...E1152.jpg.

The leather tooling shouldn't be there, and the belt's wrong- it's nothing like the wide white thong style belts of the time period you're interested in. Likewise, the suspension isn't right either; notice in the manuscript images that show the scabbard suspended that the suspension is integral and appears to be behind the scabbard itself. As for the chape (the metal bit at the bottom of the scabbard) these start to appear at the end of the 12th century; more often than not, scabbards simply would not have one.

I need to really stress that this is not the scabbard maker's fault. Brian of DBK Scabbards does superb work, and I've seen him make scabbards that are dead on. The problem is that customers have their own ideas about what they want on a scabbard, and as a craftsman, it's Brian's job to make sure that he satisfies what his customers want, regardless of historical accuracy.

Spend time looking at scabbards and suspensions. A great place to do this is Manuscript Miniatures: http://manuscriptminiatures.com. Keep in mind that even scabbard styles can change subtly over the course of a decade or two, so make sure you focus your search on the time period that you're interested in.
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Roberto E. wrote:


Correct me if im wrong, But it seems as if both the belts and the scabbards are very simple compared to some of the other things i have seen online.


Some people get the scabbards right. Many others do not. Very few people get correct belts for this time period. It all comes down to really paying close attention to details. Have a look at this scabbard for an Albion Senlac, a sword that is reasonably appropriate for your time period: http://www.dbkcustomswords.com/images/blog/MH...E1152.jpg.

The leather tooling shouldn't be there, and the belt's wrong- it's nothing like the wide white thong style belts of the time period you're interested in. Likewise, the suspension isn't right either; notice in the manuscript images that show the scabbard suspended that the suspension is integral and appears to be behind the scabbard itself. As for the chape (the metal bit at the bottom of the scabbard) these start to appear at the end of the 12th century; more often than not, scabbards simply would not have one.

I need to really stress that this is not the scabbard maker's fault. Brian of DBK Scabbards does superb work, and I've seen him make scabbards that are dead on. The problem is that customers have their own ideas about what they want on a scabbard, and as a craftsman, it's Brian's job to make sure that he satisfies what his customers want, regardless of historical accuracy.

Spend time looking at scabbards and suspensions. A great place to do this is Manuscript Miniatures: http://manuscriptminiatures.com. Keep in mind that even scabbard styles can change subtly over the course of a decade or two, so make sure you focus your search on the time period that you're interested in.


Okay, im starting to see it now.
Theyre not decorative at all. Or so it seems.
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Leo Rousseau




Location: France
Joined: 27 Dec 2013

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 1:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What you should really pay attention to is, what will you wear under the mail. You need to study text and miniatures to know what your civilian clothes will look like, which fabric to use, which colors are ok and which are not. You also need to figure what will be the type of your gambeson (the padded garment you wear under the mail). The most important factor is the wealth of the character you are portraying, because it will have a huge influence on what you will be able to wear.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another problem is that in your period, both mittens and coif should be integrated to a mail shirt. Good luck finding that for sale... Worried
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here you go Roberto...
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 590

PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also,it should depend on the reason for wanting said armour. If it is just to wear to Ren Fests,etc. I wouldn't worry too much about expensive historically correct mail. KoA has some that will suffice for the budget conscious.

Here is my old long coat of butted mail and it looks and flows well...but I am not a hardcore reenactor.

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Roberto E.




Location: Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2014

Posts: 68

PostPosted: Fri 03 Oct, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Rousseau wrote:
What you should really pay attention to is, what will you wear under the mail. You need to study text and miniatures to know what your civilian clothes will look like, which fabric to use, which colors are ok and which are not. You also need to figure what will be the type of your gambeson (the padded garment you wear under the mail). The most important factor is the wealth of the character you are portraying, because it will have a huge influence on what you will be able to wear.


So something i've been asking, that has not been answered yet, is about the chainmail at the feet? Would they ear something under the chain mail like boots or shoes?
Because it is clear that it anything on top of the mail was not of the time period.

The character i plan to portray is a high ranking Templar Knight. Preferably of the time of Richard the Lion heart and the third crusade against Saladin.
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