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Viktor Asenov
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Location: Bulgaria
Joined: 01 Jul 2013

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 7:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello guys,

Time to resurrect this interesting topic.
I'm looking for any information about the sword number 20.
Where he come from,is he excavated or has been found and of course one of the most important - dating?

Best regards,
Viktor



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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These type N and O hilts with fatter pommels in combination with slightly longer than regular one handed hilts and long blades are usually from around 1200 (+/- quarter of a century). They are probably German or Austrian and Germans transferred its use also to Transylvanian/Romanian area. Flat type N pommels on regular single handed hilts and average length blades can be earlier, even from around 1100. Quite a bit of these come from Baltic areas.
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The current authority on this type of sword is Marko Aleksić.

See this article: http://www.academia.edu/487202/Swords_with_Pommels_of_Type_N
And his full length book 'Medieval Swords from SouthEastern Europe'.

In Oakeshott's terminology, this would be a sword with type N pommel (almost transitioning to O) and type 1 cross, although the blade does not fall neatly into his system - could be XIa, or Xa transitioning to XII, but the tang is longer than typical for any of those types. (Note that Oakeshott's system was based mainly on his knowledge of Western European swords; many Eastern European swords seem to deviate from his sytem in one way or another - see Aleksić's book which includes a number of such examples as well as an extended version of Oakeshott's system to account for some of these variations)

Based on Aleksić's work I'd generally agree with what Luka said about this particular sword but would put the date later.

There are several variants of type N pommels. Some swords with N variants have been dated as early as 1100, but in some cases that was likely based on outdated information (as in Oakeshott's Xa example in Records of the Medieval Sword, which is more likely mid 13th century) or in other cases the pommel may have been a replacement. For example a sword in Zurich, which was likely original built around 1100 but its pommel (which is of a different material) may have been a replacement from a a century or more later.

Aleksić says that swords like the one shown above (hand & half hilt and long type 1 cross) are often dated to early 13th century, but firm dating for such pommel types is scarce and tends to point out later dates, including a Transylvanian excavation (about 1240), one of the sculptures in Naumburg Cathedral (about 1255), and numerous sculptures at Frieburg (late 13th century). The more upwardly curved varieties tend to come in the second half of the 13th century ending in early 14th century (based on one find of an XVI sword with an O pommel).

So for this sword, I'd venture 1250-1275, assuming all the components are original.

- JD
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jan, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another one in the same ballpark. Also type N pommel (but more roof-shaped at the top), wide type 2 cross, long grip, and relatively short blade). The pommel and overall proportions are very similar one of the sculptures in Naumburg (1255). I believe these photos originated at an auction house but can't remember the site. There are some other black and white photos of the sword floating around on myArmoury.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/files/g37880_137.jpg
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/files/g37880_e_151.jpg

Naumburg sculpture (left side): http://bitny-schlachta.pochta.ru/statja8.jpg
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Viktor Asenov
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Location: Bulgaria
Joined: 01 Jul 2013

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jan, 2014 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Things going more and more interesting.
Thank You for the replies.
Well,my opinion is : according to Aleksic and what J.D. has sad before the sword could be dated as early XIIIth century(the hilt and the cross),the blade is closest to XIa and XII type,but it's definetly unusual.The second one type has examples from the beginnig of the XIIIth c. 'till 1350(E.Oakeshott).The pommel is closer to type N,rather than O,but also
couldn't be determinate with certainty.

Conclusion: The sword is very unique and couldn't be putted in some particular time frame or type,that's why my date supposition is 1210-1275.

Best regards,
Viktor
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Viktor Asenov
Industry Professional



Location: Bulgaria
Joined: 01 Jul 2013

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jan, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way the auction ''Christie's'' ,where is published the only image of this sword date it to XIIth century...
Sorry about double posting!

Best regards,
Viktor
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