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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
Joined: 04 May 2013

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PostPosted: Sat 04 May, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Crusading Great Helm info         Reply with quote

I am studying the crusading era, and I got a great helm from Albion swords, according to my research, great helms were commonly worn with an arming cap and a coif to support it, does anyone know if there was a special kind of arming cap? I've seen a pic of one, but it was from the late fourteenth century any more info would help a lot. Thank you
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 04 May, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albion makes really good swords. The armor, not so much.

The early 13th century arming hoods or arming coifs appear to have a large padded ring around the brow, like the Wells Carhedal examples from c. 1240. The helmets from c.1240 have consideraly less taper in the skull than the Albion example, which might be more represetative of a style occuring in the late 13th and early 14th century after the Crusades.

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Wells%20...%20631.JPG
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/?name...;view=list

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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PostPosted: Sat 04 May, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey thanks for the help, honestly I got it from Albion because I wanted a authentic, historical feel for wearing that style of helm, and I did look around at a few different merchants, and I thought Albion was the best choice. And I am well aware that armour is custom to the individual, but i hope it wouldn't be too off. The helm itself is a bit big, there is nothing inside, just the helm, the bottom of the helm reaches my shoulders before the top reaches my head. That's why I'm hoping the added cushion will level it out, do you know if I could get that kind of arming cap somewhere? The one I have isn't going to cut it. I am open for suggestions.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 5:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A piece of foam rubber in the top might help the height issue. That type of helm was typically worn on top of another helm...a type of 'skull cap' , worn over a maille coif , worn over a padded coif. If you want 100% authentic, I guess you could make a little 'pillow' from cloth and stuff it with straw or feathers to go in the top instead of foam rubber. Just my two coppers.....McM
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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your help, I've been looking around after reading and doing more research, I believe what I am looking for is a arming cap that has a "doughnut" on it, correct me if I am wrong. I've been told and I have read that there are variations for the padding under the great helm. So far I have only seen the "cap" and for want for a better word a "bonnet-esque" style of arming cap. I can't seem to locate anything different.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever seen a 'donut cap' for sale anywhere. WTF?! I know what you mean, just never seen one. Good luck.......McM
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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a pickle... I'm sure there has to be a place that sells it or at least will make it, yeah?
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sure almost anyone who does custom historical sewing could do one... I would not recommend it for the Albion great helm, though. That helm style, as Mart pointed out, is most suitable for the later decades of the 13th century. Those 'donuts' don't appear in any evidence after about 1250 or so. You're better off having a padded suspension liner made that will work properly over a head/padded coif/mail coif combination, as it most likely would have been.

What you want is akin to these reproductions from Kokosh's:

http://www.gambeson.pl/medieval-on-line-shop/chainmail-caps.html

And then with an integrated, adjustable liner inside of the helm to fit over that.

-Gregory
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 05 May, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The sort of button-front arming hoods shown in the early 14th century Holkham Bible are used under bascinets, but might still serve under a mail coif-cervelliere-helm combination as well within that 1280-1320 time frame.
http://www.manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/165/

Here's a posited reconstruction for a lining:

Helm-Schilde-Dolche: Studien uber romisch-pannonische waffenfunde by Edit B. Thomas (1971) contains an analysis of the Berlin helm (reported to be the earliest existing helm of this type dated to 1270/80 ad).
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/armour/BerlinHelmSide-a.jpg
http://www.forth-armoury.com/temp/armour/BerlinHelmBack-a.jpg

While those paired holes could be used to lace in a liner, they could also be used to lace a crest and mantling to the outside of the helm, so I am unconvinced.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guys, thank you so much! This is helping me out a great deal. So I think I see what you're getting at, but I'm a little nonplussed. Does it mean I need to ship the helm back to Albion for the modifications, because I am not a blacksmith by any means. I can easily buy the coif if need be, but the lining is what is confusing, in the link the pictures of the helm have holes where the lining was, mine does not.
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Albion will probably not do modifications for you. If you want someone to make the liner for you then you may as well have it be someone who you can ship the helm to that will also drill the holes necessary for its installation. I'd suggest Jeff Hildebrandt of royaloakarmoury.com since he's a reputable armorer who also happens to custom make many sewn liners for his helmets.

-Gregory
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regardless of what went on the head before the helm, the helm would have had a liner inside it. I am familiar with two general forms - a suspension system, and a padded construction that was fixed into the helm with lacing or straps.

This effigy shows a suspension system, and it seems evident that it was to be worn over a bascinet:


This liner, from a tournament helm, shows the alternative form which would be better suited to wearing either directly over the head, or over a coif:


The helm from Dargen, Pommern, on which the Albion helm appears to have been loosely based, had something similar to the second variant of liner, and it is what I would recommend if you are planning to wear the helm over your bare head.

I hope this helps,

-Hildebrandt

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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would love to be able to wear the helm properly. Like I mentioned the bottom reaches my shoulders before the top reaches my head. When I tried it on I was wearing the bonnet style arming cap that is widely available. The size is a bit big, and I can only see at a downward angle, if I had a say I'd prefer not to drill holes in it. I rather like the idea of the tournament arming cap with the coif. I have looked around for a different kind of arming cap but to no avail. Mabye I'm missing something obvious, do you have the name of a place where I could get that tournament arming cap?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Hildebrandt wrote:
The helm from Dargen, Pommern, on which the Albion helm appears to have been loosely based, had something similar to the second variant of liner, and it is what I would recommend if you are planning to wear the helm over your bare head.


Jeffrey,
What's your source for the Dargen helm having the liner (head sock) normally associated with 15th century frog-mouthed tilting helms? That would be a surprise to me to have a liner like that dated so early.

That may be the best way to deal with this situation without drilling, but I would think the Dargen helm would have the first type of suspension helm, which was common in that era.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:

What's your source for the Dargen helm having the liner (head sock) normally associated with 15th century frog-mouthed tilting helms? That would be a surprise to me to have a liner like that dated so early.

That may be the best way to deal with this situation without drilling, but I would think the Dargen helm would have the first type of suspension helm, which was common in that era.


My source for a padded insert as the liner for the helm from Dargen is Der Topfhelm von Dargen by GŁnther Quasigroch. Such a liner actually does require holes to be punched, and the placement of paired holes in the Dargen helm are similar to the holes for points evident on later "frog mouth" helms. However, the proposed liner is a looser and less encompassing arrangement than a tilting helm's "head sock;" though the principle of its incorporation into the helm is similar.

I have made reconstructions of the Dargen helm using the liner insert illustrated and described in Quasigroch's work, pointed through holes of the same configuration as found on the original helm, and the theory survives in practice. I was actually working on a Dargen helm today, so I have taken a picture inside to give an idea of the arrangement Quasigroch suggested:



An image of a previous helm with the same lining scheme shows how it looks when leather points are pulled through and tied on the outside. The lacing is less obtrusive when tied inside, as I believe the owner of this helm now does. I should also point out that the lowermost pair of holes are both on the rear plate on the original helm (rather than straddling the seam), and would have interfered less with the chin strap than on my "tidied-up" version.



As for installing a liner in your helm, Conner, I am afraid making holes would be necessary in any case, whether it were laced in or stitched to a riveted-in leather band. Perhaps your plan of opting for an arming cap is best. :-) As long as the helm and cap each have a chin strap, it should all stay in place.

-Hildebrandt

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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Thu 09 May, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would personally bet money that an early 14th century helm liner would look almost nothing like that late 15th century jousting cap. Your reconstruction in the Dargen helm, Jeffrey, which is far less encompassing and thick, is much more reasonable.

Sean, considering the investment made in the Albion helm, I would encourage you to have as historical a reconstruction as is plausible. That would include drilling some holes in the helm, yes, but as long as you have the liner (or fresh copies of it made, depending on how often it's used and needs replacement) it will look appropriate and the holes will not distract from the overall assemblage.

-Gregory
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Sean Cooney




Location: Moscow, PA
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PostPosted: Thu 09 May, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well to be honest, I was opting for historical accuracy. I wanted to get as close as I could to the authenticity and experience of a properly historically accurate crusading era great helm. As I mentioned I did look around, I see now that I missed some key places. At the time, due to my limited knowledge, I thought my ideal places were either Albion or Arms & Armor. And due a recent bad experience with the latter I chose Albion. And looking back I feel silly, because I feel like I should have been more thorough with my research/order, alas as they say no use crying over spilt milk, and in all honesty I still think it looks pretty amazing even if it isn't exactly what I was looking for. So what I'm getting at is, I'm willing to do what I have to make this helmet not only safe/fit my head, but also get the proper modifications made to it so I can get the historically accurate experience that I was initially after. So I guess the next step would be to find a place to do it, it was Gregory who said that Albion will not likely do it, and suggested Royal Oak Armory. If that is my best bet I'm all for it. Besides the holes drilled would they also install the lining too? Or is that another place? And given what everyone has told me, I will need to get a coif too. Any recommendations? Thank you again.
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