Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Teutonic Knight, 1360 Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Teutonic Knight, 1360         Reply with quote

Here's my 1360 Teutonic Knight kit. All I need to call it finished are a haubergeon and gauntlets. (Sorry, at renn faire, so no weapons)

enjoy! Happy



 Attachment: 108.55 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 128.05 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 140.35 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 163.71 KB
[ Download ]

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,506

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks great! Would be nice to see with some weapons though... Worried
View user's profile Send private message
Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 243

PostPosted: Wed 26 Sep, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome kit! The rosary is a nice touch.
"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
View user's profile Send private message
Frederik K.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Mar 2011

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice start! i like your throat-protection very much.
i saw "experienced" reenactors in worse armor-kits, but there are a few things to improve...
i would change the Hundsgugel to a Klappvisier-bascinet. In the 1360s much more appropriate for a Knight orginating in german countries. Also i would check effigies again. Maybe you could think about changing your plate armor parts to splinted armor? or combination of your haubergon with splinted vambraces? The Surcot needs to be shortened. In the way your armor is a bit to much "avantgarde" your accesoirs are a bit "oldschool". All in all it is not 1360s right to the point, but it's very promising!
Greetings
Fred
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Frederick, yes, a Klappvisor would be more typical of a central European knight, but a hundsgugel is viable. I chose the Hundsgugel because within the price range, (GDFB, 200 USD) it was of much higher quality than any Klappvisor offerings.
Also, the plate armour is viable, even being seen in 1350s (see the link).

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effi...figies.htm

I do need to aquire a haubergeon. That's also on the shopping list.

Also, the surcoat, while becoming uncommon, was still seen. I have two German effigies from the 1350s depicting knee-length surcoats.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2709...468647900/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/heinr.../original/

And many of my acsessories are mainly for carrying modern things about the renn faire. For living history, I'd really only keep a dagger on my belt.

Oh, and thanks for the critique and the kind words of my standard. I made it myself, and I'm rather proud of it! Happy

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Frederik K.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Mar 2011

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, of course there are examples of longer surcots, but, as you can see, especially in the examples you have shown, they are diffrent from your worn model. The Surcots ar much wider and produce by that a large number of foldings copying civil fashion (or the other way round, as you like it;) ) So i would change the pattern of yours, and maybe change the cross from a pawcross to a simple one.
The Hundsgugel in the 1360s, even if it existed already, would i see as a uncommon thing for knights in german countries. Even in Tirol, Austria and southern Germnay, very italianised countrys, it would be very, very fashionable and new.
With the plate armour you are wearing on arms and shoulders i disagree.

I think its always a very difficult picture to produce while doing living history. do i want to show things that are slightly possible in any way (Hundsgugel or closed Chausses in 1370 in northern germany) or a picture of the most commen and most plausible compilation of equipment or a 1 to 1 copy of a existing source?
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The reason mine doesn't have folds is because it's open at the sides, a long Tabard if you will. Also, the style of cross was used before the Teutonic Order, and is seen on much of it's iconography.

The Hundsgugel existed in 1360. There's an example in the feature section on this website. I wouldn't see any reason a Southern German wouldn't be a Teutonic knight. Their armour was made in Germany, not in Prussia, and a Ritter hailing from the south could have brought his own armour.

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html

Here you can see someone in 1356 wearing fully integrated arms with shoulders. Also, the link that I provided (the one with the graphs) shows them worn in the 1350s.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/pierre_i/

Also, I'm doing 1360, which is a big difference from the date 1370 you are mentioning. And closed maille chausses are seen in the first linked effigy in my previous post.

I do realize that I'm doing things which wouldn't have been the most average thing in period, but they were there and documented.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Houndskull maybe yes, but surely a Klappvisor, especially if your persona is from germany.

I'd sisagree on the articulated spaulders, I haven't seen a single german effigy that depicts a german knight with them, just rounded ones.

I know it's hard my friend, especially when you are young. I had to chang tree times my helm and I'm going to replace my 240 euros arm harness with another one, and a lot more of buying is wainting me in the future.

Just don't give it up, keep your harness evolving till a decent extent.

Cheers,

Augusto.

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even in Germany the Hundsgugel becomes very popular. The spotlight bascinet feature will show many German hundsgugels. The only point to debate here is when they became so. I probably am wearing one before they reached normality in central Europe, though I will maintain they have a presence.

Also, articulated shoulders can be seen in a link I posted. A Teutonic Knight hailing from Southern Germany (which is what i portray to explain my more Italian features) would have access to many Italian things too, like more common articulating spaulders.
Unfortunately, the Germans seemed to love cloth covering their shoulders, so we don't have that much to go on, though Doug Strong's research supports articulated spaulders for Germans.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here, my friend, there could be a misinterpretation.

Note that I sai klappvisor, not shovelface klappvisor. The klappvisor is the method of attachement of the visor, not the shape of it.

And about the articulated spaudlers, I am from Italy, and I searched for the shoulder armour for a looong time. All i can say is that italy is the last region in europe to have the articulated spaulders, even after germany. In the XIVth century they were a prerogative of flance and england. Here just maille and/or rondels (it seems that we preferred mobility over protection, as you can not also by the arm harnesses, that they were mostly with a very short rebrace, to allow movement).

But if you have evidence of articulated spaulder in italy in the XIVth cen. I'd be glad to see them =).

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did some digging. The description I had is speaking of a French knight in Italy. Whoops. You are correct on Italian spaulders.

Though my digging did uncover some facts about where the Teutonic Knights got their armour. It seems they almost never bought local, importing the vast majority or their armour from abroad. Some of the main sources were very western and south Germany, and a flourishing trade with England seems to have occurred. It wouldn't be improbable to see influences (especially French or Italian) present in Teutonic armour that wouldn't have been true for most of Germany.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In that case, you are the expert (sort of italian way of saying, sorry).

I don't know anyting about Teutonic knights and if they did have specific equipment, so I leave it t you =).

My comments were made in the perspective of a common german knoght and on what they did mosto ptobably wore into battle.

The important thing is that you have to have the necessary documentation to state your claims.

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And in that case, you are the expert of Italy. Thanks for making me give my sources a second look, clearing up my misconceptions about Italian armour Happy

And yes, I have a few good books on the subject.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Frederik K.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Mar 2011

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 3:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i wanted to show an example, that even in the 1370s when in italian countries the Hundsgugel is normal knightly appearance it would be extremly uncommon in northern germany. The closed chausses were just another example, but i meant the normal clothes not mail chausses. closed ones would be even in italy, france etc in the 1370s very fashionable, but wouldnt yet exist in german or especially northern german countries. The point is even if something exists in one part of europe, it doesnt nessecarily mean that it does exist in another. So a Hundsgugel in 1360 worn by a german knight would be by a tiny tiny chance possible, but is far from realistic.
Same thing with your examples with arms and shoulders. a french Knight of the île de france is a bad example to explain the armour kit of a german knight.
The misunderstanding might come from effiges like the one of

Siegfried Bock (1355)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/siegfried_bock/

or

Johann von Stein-Kallenfels (1357)
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/johan...allenfels/

and this gentleman comes from my homeland rhineland-palatinae, left of the rhine and very french influenced by central france through luxemburg.

as you can see they were armor at their arms, but its hard to tell if it is hardened leather, splinted armor or plate armour by the conservatoric state of the effigies. But we can say for sure that thes are early forms with no complete enclosure of the arm like you are wearing.

Sadly its often the way that after buying first parts of armor and realizing that they match not perfectly, that somone is constructing a history around his parts to explain the mixture of styles and times, but thats not the way someone should reconstruct the past

As i said please dont take this as trolling or something like that. It is very pleasing to see someone doing research even if it needs a little bit of recapitulating. And for myself i am very pleased to see more and other reenactors doing the teutonic order in the XIVth century.

If you have a source for the paw-cross in the teutonic order for the XIV century, please share it, i am very interessted, cause even in the XVth the simple cross is the normal case as far as i know and it changes between the end of the XV and second half of XVIth century
View user's profile Send private message
Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Full plate arms with articulated spaulders would have been pretty old news by the 1360's.
Look at these guys from the 1340's:
http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/2006%20M...6%2040.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/john_...141/large/
Granted Germany was slower to adopt plate pieces than some other regions, but there was a lot of international trade going on.
To the OP, nice job on the kit, it flows much better than a lot of the 14th century kits I've seen people wearing. Did you make some of it yourself?
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Zojo, thank you for your sources and your kind words. Happy Much of it is hand-made, but the only part I constructed is the standard. I have made modifications to many of the pieces though.

The Teutonic Knights imported their armour from workshops in western and Southern Germany. They received their armour from those places that would have had French (or in the southern German workshops) Italian influence.

Also the Teutonic Knights didn't fight alone. Many of Europe's knights fought under the Teutonic banner, as the Baltic was the last great crusade. Considering their bustling trade with other European nations (especially England), their importation under areas of international influence, and the fact that knights from all over Europe gathered to fight for the Order, I think influence from other nations isn't something one should just dismiss out of hand.

Also, here are some 14th century examples of the Paw cross.

And I'm not purchasing parts and reconstructing my history to use them. I'm using history to validate things, even if they weren't the most typical in the world, so that I can do this hobby. I value typicality in reenacting. I really do. However, with me (at this point) it's either I portray what isn't typical (though not innacurate) or not do this at all.



 Attachment: 101.18 KB
Pcross1.jpg


 Attachment: 15.34 KB
pcross2.JPG
It's the arms of the Priory of Danzig under Teutonic rule.

 Attachment: 18.69 KB
Pcross3.jpg
Teutonic Coin

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Frederik K.




Location: Germany
Joined: 16 Mar 2011

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

once again: of course there are full articulated Plate elements...for example in England as you showed these two. But thats no evidence at all for the same thing in germany. Something like "trade" is far more than vague and highly speculative... The influence of other Nations and the participants of the "Reisen" wasn't that big, as was there influence in the succes in the "reisen" and the polish-lithuanian politics of the order in general. In ca. 300 "Reisen" between 1305 and 1409 might have fought only a few hundred of european knights, who still mostly came out of german territories, followed then by other european countries. If that influence would have been so great we had to find a large number of english or french influenced armor development in the Ordensstaat, but there is no evidence for that.
If a import and trade movement took place, is should be traceable in effigies and manuscripts, but it isnt for that period. Ergo everything that goes beyond the sources is speculation. The source for the import of southern germany would be very interessting (please post it if possible), for the southern center, the Ballei Franken, the most southern of the "german" Balleien, lies still mostly north of the Danube so i doubt there was already a big southeuropean influence. One could name the Ballei Österreich or Bozen, but these fell nearly to insignificance in the XIVth century. The centers of recrutation for the Ordensstaat lies in the Balleien of Franken, Thüringen and in the Deutschmeistertum. Western german knights served often in Kommenden in the territory of the Deutschmeister or Livland.
So after all i say that your armkit especially with the besagews doesnt realy represent teutonic armour of a knight in the 1360s and espacially not if he is serving in the Ordensstaat, besides that a few things need further improvment, like the way your aventail is attached and not been riveted etc. but these are minor things. once again: a very good start, but consider to let it rest a time and think again about a few aspects.


The tannhäuser is of course known, but for obvious reasons a very problematic source for the paw-cross in the XIVth century.
The arms of the priory of danzig are interessting, but sadly no evidence for the cross used to represent the banner. please remember that the Rennbanner even in 1410 still bore the simple cross.
The coin is very interesting, but also problematic, for it is still no evidence that brothers of the order wore that form of cross on their surcot or Banner. I am no numismatician, but there is also to ask if this coin follows a spezial order-typology ore something like that, but i am keen on learning.
View user's profile Send private message
Terry Thompson




Location: Suburbs of Wash D.C.
Joined: 17 Sep 2010

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's a good looking kit, but I agree it looks English or french and atypical of a single miniature or effigy. The golden rule of reenactment is to try to conform to what is provable. While at the same time trying to minimize all that is questionable or those items that require leaps in logic, Or imaginitive interpretation, or borrowing from other (what modernly we would consider a) nearby location or close timeframes. The 14th century was a time of rapid evolution in armour and weapons between the beginning and end of the century. And so it's even easier to fall into the trap of "well, they could have had this at this time, as it's only 10 years/100 miles...")

The side pivot visors (or ones completely lacking evidence of a mounting) are all that is seen in English effigies and monumental brasses (I think there is one image of an englishman with a klapvisor, but I may have dreamed that up). Where as German visors are for the most part klapvisors with few exceptions. Also, I think the hounskull of Churburg that you are referrencing as being dated to 1360, by Scalini, has been questioned as to it's early date. For it appears to be unique to that time, as all other extent huntskugels date to late 1370's or later. Scalini appears to be the only one (except for a few hopefulls) that the Churburg #13 dates to the early 1360's. His only evidence was a document which stated "a" suit of armour was purchased in 1366 and another commissioned in 1361, and pointed to the Churburg suit (and the helmet included simply by association) as being "It" evidently by his own process of elimination.
.
The best suggestion that was ever given to me when making a suit and soft kit, was to find an effigy/brass/detailed miniature and try to replicate it as closely as possible. Otherwise one can quickly start to look incongruent while yet not coming close to a kilt wearing pirate with a samurai sword. Anyhow your kit is light years ahead of my first collections of armour. But honestly, it looks English-ish. Klapvisor and spinted armour being more typical of Germanic regions in the solidly 1360 timeframe. My 2 cents.
View user's profile Send private message
Edward Rees




Location: Portland, OR
Joined: 02 Dec 2010

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri 28 Sep, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great looking kit but I do think that the helmet doesn't fit well with the rest of the armor. The polish level is too high in comparison to the rest of the plate. You might want you consider dropping the level of polish to match. It also seems too large for your head in the photos but that might be the angle c
The church is close but the roads are icy; the tavern is far, I will walk carefully.
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Sat 29 Sep, 2012 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder, why can't we allow for the influence or trade? What forces would have made a German knight not use an armour that provides decidedly better protection? Did German knights not have contact at all with the French? And why wouldn't imported arms bear regional influence? Was there no international arms trade? I am not being difficult here, I am really curious about this.

Also a significant minority of Knights came from southern Germany (25%) and from the Rhineland (7-10%)

But don't those Items show the Teutonic Order using the paw cross on their iconography? I have also seen them represented using the cross potent, cross Tau (the case of those who aren't full Ritterbrudern) and the early Iron cross. The rule also doesn't state anything against the wearing of other crosses.

Guys I understand what I'm wearing isn't the most representative of a perfectly German Teutonic knight. I do plan in the future to make it more German, but for the moment this is what my kit is. The fact that something was typical doesn't mean it was the absolute only thing to happen. For now my kit represents the minority.

Honestly, the reason I'm not wearing the GDFB klappvisor is because I wouldn't trust it in combat (which I plan to do in this kit). What I'm doing is less typical, but I will argue could have been worn and won't result in my face getting smashed or my visor torn off.

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Teutonic Knight, 1360
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum