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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Early 13th C great helm?         Reply with quote

What do you make of this? Looks like a great helm in Germany around 1225-1230. Note the forehead that slopes back and the full coverage around the back of the neck. Doesn't look like a Mac helm to me.

This seems a little early for this style of great helm.

From
Manuscript Memb. I 90 - Sächsische Weltchronik
Madgeburg, Germany
1225-1230



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Joshua McGee





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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree, this looks more late 13th to early 14th c.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the dating on the manuscript is incorrect. There's another piece of evidence besides the great helms for this, namely the size of the heater shields. In manuscripts from 1225 to 1230, one can still reasonably commonly see flat topped kite shields. When there are heater shields, they are usually significantly larger than the one represented here. Small heater shields of this size are characteristic of the late 13th C, and into the 14th C.
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Wed 29 Aug, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It could be that this miniature is wrongly attributed and is from another manuscript. It's also possible that the manuscript is a codex composed of multiple sections from differing dates bound together.I'd say 1360 or so for this miniature.
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The shields are very similar to the ones depicted in the Morgan Bible (French, 1250). The helms do look like german great helms. One of those is dated to around 1300 (found at castle Treuchtlingen/Germany). I know another one, better preserved find, from castle Tannenburg/Seeheim, but haven't found a picture of it online. So my best guess is, the illumination was made between 1260 and 1300 - or maybe one or two decades later in the style of the second half of the 13th century (depending on whom made it).

Regards,
Thomas

edit: found another one, the Dargner Helm, dated between 1250 and 1260, found in Dargen/Germany. It may be the earliest find of this type of helm.



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Burg_Treuchtlingen_11.jpg
Helm, castle Treuchtlingen, Germany, dated to 1300.

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topfhelmdargen.jpg
Helm of Dargen, Germany, 1250/60

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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So, the german Wikipedia says about the manuscript "Sächsische Weltchronik":

Die Sächsische Weltchronik (SW) ist die erste deutschsprachige Chronik in Prosa. Abgefasst wurde sie in mittelhoch- und mittelniederdeutscher Sprache. Im Gegensatz zu anderen Chroniken ihrer Zeit, ist sie in Prosa statt in Reimform niedergeschrieben. Die Entstehungszeit ist unklar, sie reicht von zwischen 1225 und 1229.[1] bis 1260–1275.[2] Sie liegt in drei sich unterscheidenden Rezensionen (genannt A, B und C) vor.

This translates as following:

The Sächsische Weltchronik is the first chroncle in german language. It was written in middle and middle low German. It was in prose form, not in rhyme form, like many other contemporary chronicles.. It's time of origin is disputed. It stretches from 1225/29 to 1260/75. There are three different manuscripts, called A, B and C.

So... In my opinion, we are on the safe side, to date this illumination to the second half of the 13th century.

Cheers,
Thomas

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The same manuscript, divided by miniature style:
Probable 1225-1229
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2872/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2874/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2875/

Probable 1260-1275
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2873/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2876/

Probable post-1275
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...i-90/2871/

The differences between the earliest illuminations and the latter one are clearly evident.
Compare to this German MS from 1256:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/der-welsche-g...-389/3391/
Or these from 1270-1275:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/willehalm-bsb-cgm-193iii/3417/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/willehalm-bsb-cgm-193iii/3430/

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just e-mailed manuscriptminiatures.com:

Quote:
I've noticed this before, but couldn't find evidence that Wikimedia's attribution was incorrect until now. It seems they've dumped two Weltchronik (World Chronicles) into one.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...ew=gallery


Compare the images Wiki reports to be at LBG to images from Bildindex of a manuscript in the SBB:

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...ms-m/2871/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00191c12a.jpg

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sachsische-we...ms-m/2876/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00191c10a.jpg

I believe these two images should be reclassified as being SBB MS. Germ. 2º129 fo123v & fo117v.

Forgot to note dating and source is attributed to be c.1325, probably Lüneburg, Germany, meaning the original helms in question are dated to the early 14th century.

Hopefully he'll be able to clean up Wikimedia's error on his site soon.

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