Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Leather Costrel/Bottle VS Belt Tankard? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Johnson T.





Joined: 12 Aug 2012

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Leather Costrel/Bottle VS Belt Tankard?         Reply with quote

It seems that various re enactment suppliers have stocked two forms of 'liquid on the go'. You can either wear a strap with a tankard on the end, but not practical for actually carrying the liquid. Or you can use a leather costrel, of which many historical examples in museums survive.

My question is, who would of worn these. Would a knight of used one, or a tankard, or neither? Costrels were supposedly used from the 14th c. to 19th c., but there is evidence they existed in the 11th century.

If medieval knights wore neither of these, what did they use to supply themselves in water? The Crusades were long and hard, I don't believe for one second they could of had a 'universal supply' which had to stop everytime somebody was thristy/hungry/tired. Who carried their water, or how did medieval soldiers carry it?

Here are some examples. The first is a surviving costrel, the second is a reconstruction. Please notice the difference in construction, whether or not ANY medieval costrels were this 'leather bottle' shape or if they were all barrel shaped, I am not yet able to figure out, but I'll keep researching it.

- 14th c. Medieval costrel.

- reconstruction from suppliers.

http://woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com.au/2009...ottle.html
http://leatherworkingreverend.files.wordpress...nkware.pdf
Information here.
View user's profile Send private message
Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First of all, leather costrels seems to have been mostly an English thing; afaik there is little or no evidence to support their use on the continent. Secondly, the use of leather canteens as featured in the second picture appears to be somewhat of an reenactorism - there might be sources on them but in any case I doubt that they were common.

As for means of carrying water in the middle ages there were probably regional differences. In continental Europe, small wooden barrel-like vessels are frequently depicted in period art, especially in conjunction with pilgrims and shepherds, and several metal (pewter) canteens have been preserved in Germany (and possibly other places). Similar canteens in ceramic have also been found and are depicted in medieval art as well. I also suspect that water/wine sacks of leather were commonly used, at least in southern Europe.
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mikael,

do you have any pictures or other sources for those german canteens? I suspect these leather bottles to be an reenactorism, too. And I think the ceramic flasks are too fragile, to be carried along.

Regards,
Thomas

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
Joined: 06 Mar 2007

Posts: 252

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas, there are several examples (pictorial as well as archeological) in the following link: http://www.larsdatter.com/canteens.htm

Interestingly, the metal canteens are very similar to Roman legionary canteens, although a bit 'fancier'. Ceramic canteens would certainly have been less durable, but then I don't think that canteens and other equipment were carried into battle. Also, they were probably so inexpensive that they were considered disposable.
Still though I believe that wooden canteens were the most common, at least among less wealthy soldiers and men-at-arms. There's a nice reconstruction as well as sources here: http://www.diu-minnezit.de/realie_details.php...&tid=3
View user's profile Send private message
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,247

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I doubt very much that ANYone ever carried a tankard hung from their belt like that! Certainly not a knight--he'd have servants to carry everything for him. It's purely a Renn Faire thing. Thought as always, if anyone comes up with documentation, I will cheerfully eat my words!

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,123

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The French considered drinking from leather containers to be barbaric. They joked that the English drank from their boots.

I've just bought some gourd seeds so I can try making canteens from home-grown gourds. I have a long wait. Sad
View user's profile Send private message
Thomas R.




Location: Germany
Joined: 10 May 2010
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue 28 Aug, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
The French considered drinking from leather containers to be barbaric. They joked that the English drank from their boots.(


Haha, what a humorous bunch the french are ;o)

And thanks for the links, Mikael!

http://maerenundlobebaeren.tumblr.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu 30 Aug, 2012 12:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd suspect that the 'Supply Train' carried most of the water (and ale, and wine). Barrels on Wagons, I expect.

Also there are depictions afo knights rushing to arm from a cart loaded with weapons so I suspect that the general march wasn't conducted in armour so carrying personal ceramic costrels (unlikely to break with no metal to bang against) or more likely relying on servants carrying buckets up and down the line would have probably been the case.

Maybe there was some kind of saddle-bag-like container carried by the knight's horse too?
View user's profile Send private message
Ralph Grinly





Joined: 19 Jan 2011

Posts: 289

PostPosted: Sun 02 Sep, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone know how far back in history the spanish wine skin goes ?? I'd guess that they would be a pretty functional item ? I used to have one, that was lined with a pitch like substance..and it was quite useful.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Leather Costrel/Bottle VS Belt Tankard?
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum