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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jun, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Kilij assemble         Reply with quote

Hi everyone. Does anyone know how a turkish kilij is assembled? Please help. Confused
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jun, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Visit the Topkapi in Istanbul and find it out.
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Cole B





Joined: 05 Mar 2008

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri 29 Jun, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:
Visit the Topkapi in Istanbul and find it out.

That's helpful.

Ricardo, I know Vince Evans makes a lot of very cool Eastern swords, if you could find a way to contact him I'm sure he'd know. Unfortunately the site I had linking to his stuff is 404 now.
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Nicholas A. Gaese




Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jun, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a proper answer, it would be best to say what time period your thinking of. Right into the 16th century and onwards, the Turkish kilij tended to be made of two half's of the grip riveted to the tang, which would be of equal width in accordance to Islamic tradition of sword making. these grips could be made of various materials, such as wood, bone, ivory, or a composite of those materials with others. these are the types with the bulbous pommels, without the metal caps, which are more particularly of the Iranian style in make. the guard is sometimes wedged into the tang like a euro sword, but alternatively could be wedged and riveted unto the base of the blade/tang, similar to Moghul Indian Tulwar.







Regards.
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cole B wrote:


Ricardo, I know Vince Evans makes a lot of very cool Eastern swords, if you could find a way to contact him I'm sure he'd know. Unfortunately the site I had linking to his stuff is 404 now.


I see, i will try to contact him. This is indeed a quite good idea Cole Big Grin
Thank you.

Best regards.

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Last edited by Ricardo S. on Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicholas A. Gaese wrote:
For a proper answer, it would be best to say what time period your thinking of. Right into the 16th century and onwards, the Turkish kilij tended to be made of two half's of the grip riveted to the tang, which would be of equal width in accordance to Islamic tradition of sword making. these grips could be made of various materials, such as wood, bone, ivory, or a composite of those materials with others. these are the types with the bulbous pommels, without the metal caps, which are more particularly of the Iranian style in make. the guard is sometimes wedged into the tang like a euro sword, but alternatively could be wedged and riveted unto the base of the blade/tang, similar to Moghul Indian Tulwar.







Regards.


I see. Thank you Nicholas, you are right about the time period, my interest is on assembling methods from 16th century and onwards. You provided me very good and valuable information. But the guard hole was big enough to pass through the expanded end of the tang, or the tang itself was made of two parts, so after the guard is in place, the tang is soldered/riveted to receive the grip slabs?

Best regards.

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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most antique scimitars I have seen have the tang as wide as the grip slabs are and slabs are riveted to tang's sides. Guard is slided on the tang before the grip slabs are riveted and that's it in most cases. Safe and simple. Guard can be additionally riveted to the tang or blade base if the smith thinks it will improve stability of it.
That is also how grips on this picture of antique scimitar I found on google look to me:



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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Most antique scimitars I have seen have the tang as wide as the grip slabs are and slabs are riveted to tang's sides. Guard is slided on the tang before the grip slabs are riveted and that's it in most cases. Safe and simple. Guard can be additionally riveted to the tang or blade base if the smith thinks it will improve stability of it.
That is also how grips on this picture of antique scimitar I found on google look to me:


I see, thank you Luka. But Gene Wilkinson, at another forum, sent me yesterday a link to a thread in response to the same question i've made there. The thread is a treasure, full of images and explanations. I will be glad to share the link, but i don't know if i am allowed to post a link to another forum's thread here. Anyway the post answers a lot of questions and the tang is made out of two parts, so after the guard slides through the part still attached to the blade and set in place, the second part with the expanded end is then fixed to the whole. I don't know if every kilij is made that way, but it make sense.

Regards.

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While not an expert on historical construction, I AM very fascinated with types of sabers
from the middle east and europe.

With that said, I'm curious as to why you're interested in the historical assembling of a
kilij grip, Ricardo ? Do you have a project planned ? or is it just a quest for knowledge ?

For my money, if I were recreating an historical example of a kilij, why not do a full-tang
construction with the grip halves pegged securely in place ? I suggest this only because
I've a certain " attitude " toward swords in general which really isn't necessary to this
particular thread .... B-)
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz wrote:
While not an expert on historical construction, I AM very fascinated with types of sabers
from the middle east and europe.

With that said, I'm curious as to why you're interested in the historical assembling of a
kilij grip, Ricardo ? Do you have a project planned ? or is it just a quest for knowledge ?

For my money, if I were recreating an historical example of a kilij, why not do a full-tang
construction with the grip halves pegged securely in place ? I suggest this only because
I've a certain " attitude " toward swords in general which really isn't necessary to this
particular thread .... B-)


Hi Matthew. Yes, I have a project planned. But it is an order made ​​by a person. So I do not know if it will be realized, but even so, it's always good to learn as much as possible. Even if the person who ordered, give up, I will have learned valuable things about these swords and acquired more knowledge. I will make a full-tang, just like you said. What i said about a split tang is that the tang that I saw in the post, was divided into two halves so that the guard could come to the right place, without going through the bulbous part and then the halves were welded. At least that's what I understand seeing the pictures and thinking of those specimens whose bulbous / expanded tang is wider than the blade's shoulder , so if the guard pass through that expanded portion and came to the blade, it would pass right through it unless the guard was riveted. But I think a guard, attached only by a pin, is very weak. If you think about it, a forge welded tang, is much stronger and safer than a guard secured only by a pin. But always a full-tang construction with the grip slabs pinned at the sides. Hope i made myself clear.

Regards.

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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ricardo S. wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
Most antique scimitars I have seen have the tang as wide as the grip slabs are and slabs are riveted to tang's sides. Guard is slided on the tang before the grip slabs are riveted and that's it in most cases. Safe and simple. Guard can be additionally riveted to the tang or blade base if the smith thinks it will improve stability of it.
That is also how grips on this picture of antique scimitar I found on google look to me:


I see, thank you Luka. But Gene Wilkinson, at another forum, sent me yesterday a link to a thread in response to the same question i've made there. The thread is a treasure, full of images and explanations. I will be glad to share the link, but i don't know if i am allowed to post a link to another forum's thread here. Anyway the post answers a lot of questions and the tang is made out of two parts, so after the guard slides through the part still attached to the blade and set in place, the second part with the expanded end is then fixed to the whole. I don't know if every kilij is made that way, but it make sense.

Regards.


I think there is no rule against posting the links to the other forums. That is interesting and if tge expanded part of the tang welded to the main part is short, I guess it doesn't suffer much and is safe enough...
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ricardo S. wrote:
I will be glad to share the link, but i don't know if i am allowed to post a link to another forum's thread here.


As long as the link is on-topic and not linking to anything objectionable or illegal, we always allow people to post links that help answer the question(s) at hand.

If there are ever questions when posting, people are always welcome to read our rules to determine if something is allowed. They can also check out past precedent to see what others have done. That will answer a lot of questions. Happy

Happy

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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:

I think there is no rule against posting the links to the other forums. That is interesting and if tge expanded part of the tang welded to the main part is short, I guess it doesn't suffer much and is safe enough...


Interesting indeed. I will post the link, since Chad allowed it. I think many questions will be answered and more will arise.

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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Ricardo S. wrote:
I will be glad to share the link, but i don't know if i am allowed to post a link to another forum's thread here.


As long as the link is on-topic and not linking to anything objectionable or illegal, we always allow people to post links that help answer the question(s) at hand.

If there are ever questions when posting, people are always welcome to read our rules to determine if something is allowed. They can also check out past precedent to see what others have done. That will answer a lot of questions. Happy


Thank you Chad. I agree with you, i looked for it here but i couldn't find.
The link is on-topic. It's a restoration process of a Kilij. Big Grin

Regards.

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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here follows the link guys. Now, at the start of the thread there is a link, don't follow it, just down the page and you will find the photos of the process. Enjoy. Happy


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11653

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