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Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: fully enclosed arm harness         Reply with quote

Greetings,
I am interested in this kind of arm harness, enclosed in the elbow-pit (a place where forearm and the bicep meet).



Obviously these are made for a maximillian armour, but I was wondering if any like these were made before, like say, in the 15th century?

Thanks!

PS are there any modern armoursmiths that have reproduced these?

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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I know, that is a purely 16th century thing. One of Henry VIII's harness' had similar inside-the-elbow lames.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,429

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
As far as I know, that is a purely 16th century thing. One of Henry VIII's harness' had similar inside-the-elbow lames.


not just the arm.... that armour enclosed EVERYTHING.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y656XKHaGn8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPKrAfww79U&am...SEztmII%3D
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Boris R.





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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yeah I already knew about that Henry the Fat's armour, but that was not really my question.
Are there any armoursmiths today that know how to make functional arm harness like that?

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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

definately cant help there, check the usual armourers maybe?
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Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did a bit of research myself actually, Eysenkleider from Germany and Millenium Fabri Armorum from Italy had already made some in the past. Thanks anyway Happy
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 17 Mar, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all. Happy

Same type of the armor(fully enclosed arm) is displayed in Metropolitan Museum.
But I don't know know the detailed things... Sad
So I have some questions. Question Question Question



* What is written on this board?
* What is this (overlapping plates form) called by the technical term?

thanks Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sun 18 Mar, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hmmm, you know, pointing out that the back of the knee is not "articulated" like the inside of the elbow does seem a little strange. Do you think it's for better comfort or related to riding? i'd imagine that being your leg is against the flank of the horse that maybe there's no relevance for the need of armour there.

and to raise another question about fully enclosed articulation, i wonder if it restricts the body. restriction in comparison to non-articulated inner joints. the fact that this articulation is found on armour of the period illustrates that it is functional, but it seems to be like an extra accessory. (like getting a chrome grill for your truck)
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There was a great website that explained in depth how this was done, but unfortunately it is down now and the only way it can be accessed now is via the 'Wayback Machine'.

http://web.archive.org/web/20100803051110/htt...ession.htm

Most of the photos are thoroughly shot; you may have to surf several different pages on Wayback Machine's files to get them.

Quite regrettable, honestly. The best way to get information on this may be to contact Carmel Emanuel Abela, the armourer, but I'm not sure any of this works anymore considering it's down.
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James Anderson III




Location: Charles Town, WV
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
What is this (overlapping plates form) called by the technical term?


This is called "compression articulation".

The "normal" articulation we see on knees / elbows without inside coverings is "shell articulation".

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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My partial answer about the back of the knee is that the cuisse does not wrap all the way around the leg, and therefore doesn't give an upper support for the articulation to attach to. Without that support, it will just sag.

I can make a few guesses as to why the cuisse does not wrap around; one would be, as stated above, comfort while riding. Another would be simply value for effort. The inside of the elbows and front of the upper arms are relatively exposed in combat, whereas the backs of the legs are usually away from an oncoming threat.

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all Happy

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Quote:
As far as I know, that is a purely 16th century thing. One of Henry VIII's harness' had similar inside-the-elbow lames.

William P wrote:
Quote:
not just the arm.... that armour enclosed EVERYTHING.


So "the back of knee...(3rd photo)" photo is to compare the difference of Henry VIII's armor.
But file size has become big... Then I cut "Henry VIII's armor(4th photo)" photo.



Daniel Wallace wrote:
Quote:
hmmm, you know, pointing out that the back of the knee is not "articulated" like the inside of the elbow does seem a little strange. Do you think it's for better comfort or related to riding? i'd imagine that being your leg is against the flank of the horse that maybe there's no relevance for the need of armour there.

Craig Shackleton wrote:
Quote:
I can make a few guesses as to why the cuisse does not wrap around; one would be, as stated above, comfort while riding. Another would be simply value for effort. The inside of the elbows and front of the upper arms are relatively exposed in combat, whereas the backs of the legs are usually away from an oncoming threat.

I have asked a similar question. Happy
Historical Arms Talk > about the back of knee of the plate armour
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p...ht=#189239

James Anderson III wrote:
Quote:
This is called "compression articulation".

Thanks! Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
yeah I already knew about that Henry the Fat's armour, but that was not really my question.
Are there any armoursmiths today that know how to make functional arm harness like that?


The basic concept, tough tricky to pull off as neatly as the originals, is actually quite simple.
It's essentially a bunch of c-shaped lames laid at an angle so they're flat across the top, and in the center, they overlap a oval shaped piece.
When the arm is bent, they compress, like a sabaton.
This sort of elbow seems to only appear in the 16th and 17th centuries, but is actually much simpler than the elaborate wings used in the 15thC.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Henry VIII armour with lames in the elbow and knee shown in some of the photos was made for the field of Cloth of Gold tournament. Made specifically for that purpose, not for war. Comfort and mobility in this case was second to excessive safety for royalty. Possibly some armours with this inside lamellar was still used for war but I think this is the original purpose of it.

Ironically Henry VIII:s form fitting armour was failed by the marshals (possibly because it had no plate skirt on it) and he had to get a new one done to their specs virtually overnight to be allowed to participate. Supposedly the armour was much later the model for the early space suits. If these used compression lames I don't know. I've only ever seen a more modern suit cut up to show the cross section and that didn't seem to have any, just rubber and insulation layers.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Kelby Barnhill




Location: Virginia
Joined: 22 Mar 2012

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are some interesting pictures in this thread on the ArmourArchive:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...henry+VIII

They are a recreation but there are some good views of both the inside and outside in different stages of articulation.
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