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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Can you identify this cuirass? Reply to topic
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Nov, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Can you identify this cuirass?         Reply with quote

I found this image of what looks like a European cuirass that has been converted in Japan, the question...does anyone recognize what country and or era this armor may have come from originally or if it is a replica. It is well known that the Japanese at first converted European plate armor for their own use and then later they manufactured their own armor using the European armor style for some components. This may be someones attempt to replicate such an armor or it may be an original, I am trying to get some more information from someone who knows European armor, thanks.


]img]http://img321.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/4/7/3/5/tsun815815-img600x450-1322131216boyiyw46771.jpg[/img]


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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

considering that it was the portuguese the japanese first had major contact with... id say its aportuguese breastplate,

i dont know whether its an original portuguese , modified breastplate, a japanese copy from the sengoku era whether this is a 19th century replica of that style of sengoku period armour

what i do know is that the portuguese came into contact with japan to level of decent relations, was around the 1500's, as you probably know, the portuguese also introduced the matchlock which was adopted with much enthusiasm by the japanese the first matchlocks purchased by the japanese from portuguese men was around 1540,

i dont know when the armour began to be replicated but id assume somethome between then and the end of the sengoku period which was in the early to mid 17th century so were still talking renaissance europe, and the main influence on japanese during that time was from portugese since they had an empire across asia, japan represented its easternmost position, on the island tanegashima (which, aside from teppo, tanegashima is the name often given to these firearms by the japanese)


but then again, i dont think id be that wrong to suggest that style of breastplate was very common in europe around the renaissance period. you might find it in spain portugal, germany, italy britain as well i guess.
since around that time multiple nations adopted very similar infantry tactics centred around pike and shot.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
considering that it was the portuguese the japanese first had major contact with... id say its aportuguese breastplate,............... you might find it in spain portugal, germany, italy britain as well i guess.
since around that time multiple nations adopted very similar infantry tactics centred around pike and shot.
William unfortunately I can not find a close match, I did search for images of Portuguese armor but there are not a lot of images. I believe it was originally European. Here is a similar one as an example. Besides the Portuguese, the Dutch and other countries traded with Japan, I was hoping someone here might have seen this particular style before and recognize any traits which might point to it as an antique or replica..


http://www.epiphanydigest.com/antique-armor-c...backplate/
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Josh Warren




Location: Manhattan, Kansas
Joined: 01 Nov 2006

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks rather like an 18th-19th century cuirasser's cuirass.
Non Concedo
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Christopher Treichel




Location: Metro D.C.
Joined: 14 Jan 2010

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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I knew those knobs reminded me of something...http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=260539.0 check out the third picture... armour on the right side... used for affixing the shoulder straps...

Since the plate armour in question is not Peascod it might be older than that fashion but still Spanish or Portuguese... The Dutch were also involved in trading with the Japanese.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

in my opinion, this cuirass is much younger.
maybe really 18th-19th cent.,
at least I´d say a typical cuirassiers plate,from the time on , when cuirassiers established the style, they wore until their demise in the 1900s, so probably ~1700 onwards.
due to the central ridge i`d say more 18th cent. than later.



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austrian cuirasser of the 7-years-war

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Anton_von_Werner_-_Garde-du-Corps-Kürassierklein.jpg
prussian cuirasser late 19th cent
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 306

PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For reference, here are two mid/late-17thc Portuguese arcabuzeiro (cavalry arquebusier) breastplates, together with the information from their museum tags. These would date about a generation or two after Ieyasu's famous converted European armor.

http://www.forensicfashion.com/1656PortugueseNobleArmor.html

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Christopher Treichel




Location: Metro D.C.
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

maybe an Edo period item?
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
I knew those knobs reminded me of something...http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=260539.0 check out the third picture... armour on the right side... used for affixing the shoulder straps...

Since the plate armour in question is not Peascod it might be older than that fashion but still Spanish or Portuguese... The Dutch were also involved in trading with the Japanese.


Thanks for the replys everyone, Christopher thanks for link to those pictures, they have a similar look. Without being able to see the armor personally I can not tell if the Japanese modifications that were made are old or modern although the parts themselves seem old so the armor is all I have to go on, Images of this type of modified European armor are hard to find especially close up images of a modified European cuirass. I am thinking that someone in Japan may have created this in the Edo period or more modern times with original Japanese armor parts and antique European armor as a display or educational item, if that is the case it still interesting.

Armour supposedly found in Mexico of Spanish origin.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=260539.0

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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh was first to the buzzer with the correct answer. It is indeed a cuirassier's cuirass. That makes Eric's armour fairly recent.
jamesarlen.com
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Josh was first to the buzzer with the correct answer. It is indeed a cuirassier's cuirass. That makes Eric's armour fairly recent.
During the late Edo period (1800s) many samurai had become rather negligent in ownership and upkeep of weapons and armor, as the country headed towards civil war both arms and armor were quickly made or resurrected from older items. As opposed to the more elaborate armor of early times, I have seen a lot of rather crude but effective armor and weapons which seem to originate from this turbulent time period, even what appears to be home made items. The armor I pictured may be one such item as it does not have the usual embellishments that one would see from an earlier armor, just basic protection. France helped some samurai clans during the late Edo period, I have seen some French cuirassier's armor which has the same look.

French cuirassier's cuirass

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