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Phil U




Location: Seattle
Joined: 07 Nov 2010

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Data on Albion viking swords         Reply with quote

Interested in your thoughts on data from Albion's 'New Generation' viking swords.
At first glance, to the unpracticed eye, the data would suggest that differences between
these swords are superficial, unless you consider the high and low ends on an index.
Wondering if functionally these various swords are very different?


__________Total Lgth____Weight___Blade Lgth______Width
Gaddhjalt_____41.125 ____1.1______35.875______1.93
Knud_________39_______1.17______32.875______2
Hersir_______ 37_______1.17______30.75______2.2
Huskarl_______36.9______1.22______31________2.2
Vinland_______36.875____1.1______30.875 ______2.2
Valkyire_______36.5_____1.33______30.25______2.32
Gotland_______36.375___1.2______30.125______2.375
Jarl__________36.25____1.27______30.125 ______2.2
Berserker_____36_______1.2______29.56_________2
Stamford _____35.875____1.17______30.25 ______2.25
Clontarf ______35.875 ____1.0______30.375 ______2.25
Thegn_______34.5_______0.915_____28.75______2.1875

The Berserker cauight my eye when I first looked at these swords.
However, in spite of its fearsome name, it looks quite middle-of-the road.
I've enjoyed the reviews of a few of these on these forums, but it seems that
if I ever come to the point of pulling the trigger on one of these, decisions may be made on appearances.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 2:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Data alone is very inadequate for knowing how a sword will feel or handle, particularly because the Albion page doesn't give you every piece of information- and nor should they either: it's Peter Johnsson's R&D. Further, even if you have all the information, that still tells you nothing about how a sword feels in hand and when striking and thrusting, which is knowledge that can only be had through handling, not from reading statistics. Nor will raw data alone give you a clear indication of how good the weapon is at cutting and thrusting.

The Beserkr is a fearsome cutter, as I understand, something which will not be apparent if you are merely looking at statistics in terms of length, width, weight, etc. You seem to be operating on the assumption that "bigger is better", but this is not necessarily so, especially considering that having a larger and heavier sword were not driving factors in the creation of Viking era blades, for the most part.
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Phil U




Location: Seattle
Joined: 07 Nov 2010

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
You seem to be operating on the assumption that "bigger is better", but this is not necessarily so, especially considering that having a larger and heavier sword were not driving factors in the creation of Viking era blades, for the most part.


Actually I'm fairly free of assumptions and judgements on these blades, that's the point of the thread... how does one sort amongst the blades? Your point is good, the data isn't going to do much from you, you cite some unquantifiable factors, and I can go with that. because I know little Still, in the case of the Berserker it is curious to read their description of it and then observe that it is shorter, thinner, and lighter than most others in the line. What then, accounts for their descriptors "massive, brutal, aggressive"?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil,
I suggest you read our reviews on a variety of products and brands, if you haven't done so already. We list more stats than most makers do, but even those stats don't give a complete picture of handling. We also have many threads, including a number in the Spotlight Topics section, that cover handling.

Take a stick that weighs 1 pound and is 3 feet long. Take an additional pound of weight and add it to the far end (the end away from your hand). Now move the 1 pound weight toward you hand. It would feel different and probably better in the hand, even though both configurations are the same length and weight. Now imagine splitting the 1 pound weight in half and putting the 2 1/2 pound weight in different locations along the stick. Different feeling again.

Length, weight, and width only tell you so much. Balance point tells you a little more, which our reviews include. Location of vibrational and rotational nodes tells you more.

In the case of the Berserkr it is shorter and less wide, but that doesn't mean the blade is thinner. How the mass is distributed is key. Too much or too little mass in certain places is detrimental to handling.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil U wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
You seem to be operating on the assumption that "bigger is better", but this is not necessarily so, especially considering that having a larger and heavier sword were not driving factors in the creation of Viking era blades, for the most part.


Actually I'm fairly free of assumptions and judgements on these blades, that's the point of the thread... how does one sort amongst the blades? Your point is good, the data isn't going to do much from you, you cite some unquantifiable factors, and I can go with that. because I know little Still, in the case of the Berserker it is curious to read their description of it and then observe that it is shorter, thinner, and lighter than most others in the line. What then, accounts for their descriptors "massive, brutal, aggressive"?


In case of Berserk, the whole 'aggressive' thing is probably about one edged blade geometry, which is, more or less rightly, connected with brutal chopping ability.

Such blade profile is quite a lot different, so I guess that comparing it to two edged blades of similar dimensions can get a bit tricky.

But seeing that Stamford, for example, have similar weight, with similar blade lenght, but has center of balance and center of percussion significantly further down the blade - Bersekr is probably not that hefty at all.

But certainly nothing would beat comparison made by person who actually held both in his hand.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Data on Albion viking swords         Reply with quote

Phil U wrote:
The Berserker cauight my eye when I first looked at these swords.
However, in spite of its fearsome name, it looks quite middle-of-the road.
I've enjoyed the reviews of a few of these on these forums, but it seems that
if I ever come to the point of pulling the trigger on one of these, decisions may be made on appearances.


Well, Albion does have the "policy" of using the same blade for a few different models. For instance, the Reeve and the Bayeux (and I think also the Stamford) have the same blade. Now, as far as I see, the guard is also the same, so that means the only difference is the pommel. If you compare the stats of these two models, there is a difference, but in my opinion it's quite minor. So I think that means that you could buy either sword based on looks alone and forget about any small difference in balance etc. However, the feel of holding sword with a brazil nut pommel is different than the feel of holding a wheel pommeled one.

As for the Berserker, I haven't handled one, but I did handle Cervenka's single edged Viking sword. The main thing I remember about it was it's stiffness compared to a double edged Type X sword. This stiffness also has a great effect on how a sword feels in the hand. I have to say I loved how Cervenka's sword felt in hand.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've swung the Berserker and liked it a lot. It's made for brutal chopping obviously and is quite solid but also surprisingly agile if one can handle a sword with a hefty blade presence, like I train to do.

I find this relates to what technique one is used to and how much of your body you activate to get the sword moving more than a specific sword being "better made" or "better balanced" than another. They're made for different purposes and cater to different needs and technique orientation of a swordsman. If one is unfamiliar with decent blade presence oriented swords and want something that's ligth and "wristy" then the Thegn is a better choice. If one wants a heavy cutter for their first attempts at sharp target cutting the Berserker is just perfect since it's far easier to handle a single edge sharp without cutting yourself than a double edged one which takes a while to get used to.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Phil U




Location: Seattle
Joined: 07 Nov 2010

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks all, this is really helpful.

Johan, what do you mean by hefty blade presence .... does this relate to Paul's comment about blade stiffness?

All in all the berserker sounds like the one for me so far.
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Robert Muse




Location: Washington
Joined: 28 Sep 2009

Posts: 465

PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 11:35 pm    Post subject: Viking Swords         Reply with quote

Hi Phil,

If you like the Berserker look at the Ollin Blades Magus Koll. I have an early custom one and like it better, as I have owned both, but just my view.

Regards
Robert
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Phil U




Location: Seattle
Joined: 07 Nov 2010

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Viking Swords         Reply with quote

Robert Muse wrote:

If you like the Berserker look at the Ollin Blades Magus Koll. I have an early custom one and like it better, as I have owned both, but just my view.


Found the Ollin site with a few minutes of Googling. Wow! That sword is a beauty, as are the others in his line. Thanks for the lead.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Viking Swords         Reply with quote

Phil U wrote:
Found the Ollin site with a few minutes of Googling. Wow!


Using our Links page could have saved you that few minutes of Googling. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Phil U wrote:
Thanks all, this is really helpful.

Johan, what do you mean by hefty blade presence .... does this relate to Paul's comment about blade stiffness?

All in all the berserker sounds like the one for me so far.


Blade presence refers to how the blade of the sword feels when moving the sword, striking, or thrusting. With most cruciform blade medieval swords, you will notice that it feels as though the majority of the mass of the weapon is concentrated below the hilt. Typically, the blade feels significantly lighter than the hilt portion of the sword if a sword is well balanced.

But, depending upon the sword blade's geometry, different swords will have different amounts of heft or "presence" in the swing. The degree to which a sword feels light and agile, or more noticably solid and robust, is its blade presence. You might have noted that I did not say " the degree to which the blade feels heavy", and this is for two reasons. First, historically accurate medieval single-handed swords are not going to be that heavy, period; they typically have weights between 2.0-3.5 lbs. Second, "heavy" in my mind implies clumsy or cumbersome. Even with a blade that has a lot of presence, like Albion's Duke, Baron, Tritonia, and Berserkr (among others) the sword will still have balance and agility- there will just be more heft to it, and usually more cleaving power in the cut..
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Phil U




Location: Seattle
Joined: 07 Nov 2010

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat 05 Nov, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Viking Swords         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Phil U wrote:
Found the Ollin site with a few minutes of Googling. Wow!


Using our Links page could have saved you that few minutes of Googling. Happy


And after a few minutes of scanning the front page, I found the links page way up there at the top of the page. Laughing Out Loud
All kidding aside, I'm glad you pointed that out, I was about to ask "where can I find a list of sword makers and armorers, etc".. Thanks!
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