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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 8:40 pm    Post subject: An 11th. C. spear head commission with Patrick Barta         Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

I am having a spear head made by Patrick Barta using the example shown below (pg. 88) as inspiration. It was a bit difficult for us to find documented examples of 11th. and 12th. C. spear heads but luckily we did locate a few. In addition, Patrick was able to personally examine a 10th. c. spear head with lugs, and so could assertain a historical method of constructing and attatching the lugs to the body of the spear.

Patrick will be sending me a drawing of the proposed design and I will post it here to allow folks to follow a bit of the process.

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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 10:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That should turn out beautifully. Please remember to keep the progress of the transaction posted. I'm overly fond of well-made spears, axes and other secondary weaponry.... Seem so few and far between. Barta finishing a spear will be like a dream. Big Grin

-Gregory
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is something I'm excited to see! Patrick has the magic touch. Will he haft it for you?
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
This is something I'm excited to see! Patrick has the magic touch. Will he haft it for you?


Oh, not from the Czech Repuclic!! That would cost quite a bit! It will be up to me. Depending on the socket diameter it may be easier (using A&A 7 ft. or so pole) or if a different diameter than their offering thus making the process difficult.

I also don't know, as of yet, if it will involve a nail or will be or anything else. I have seen use of nails, a slit in the metal on one side- maybe using a nail or just friction, and use of simply friction- this I have seen on A%A and other reproductions.

I have sent off a message to Patrick letting him know of my quandry and to keep it in mind while he does the drawing.

BTW Does anyone know what those letters mean around the picture of the spear head? I don't recognize them or the letters next to the numbers as units of measure.
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W. Knight




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking closely at the picture, the text in this book is another language (possibly Czech?), so perhaps the letters are abbreviations of Czech words?

The development of this thread looks like it could be extremely interesting. I have not seen any other threads on here yet that allow readers to follow the whole process of having something custom made (though I've only browsed through a fraction of the content on this site thus far). This is something I would love to see from start to finish (Though I'm not sure just how much of the process you intend to share)
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Vaclav Homan




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Language in this Book is Magyar.
There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Knight wrote:
Looking closely at the picture, the text in this book is another language (possibly Czech?), so perhaps the letters are abbreviations of Czech words?

The development of this thread looks like it could be extremely interesting. I have not seen any other threads on here yet that allow readers to follow the whole process of having something custom made (though I've only browsed through a fraction of the content on this site thus far). This is something I would love to see from start to finish (Though I'm not sure just how much of the process you intend to share)


Oh, there are quite a few threads over the years following custom projects! Maybe more than a hundred- who knows?

I recall threads on custom projects with A&A, John Luderno, Patrick Barta, OlliN, Robert Moc, Arms Bohemia, Leo Todeschini, and probably others as well!

This might be the first spear related one but I could be wrong here as well.


Last edited by Jeremy V. Krause on Sun 09 Oct, 2011 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vaclav Homan wrote:
Language in this Book is Magyar.


Can you read it? If so, could you comment on the meaning of the various indicators related to the larger spear head shown on page 88?
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
W. Knight wrote:
Looking closely at the picture, the text in this book is another language (possibly Czech?), so perhaps the letters are abbreviations of Czech words?

The development of this thread looks like it could be extremely interesting. I have not seen any other threads on here yet that allow readers to follow the whole process of having something custom made (though I've only browsed through a fraction of the content on this site thus far). This is something I would love to see from start to finish (Though I'm not sure just how much of the process you intend to share)


Oh, there are quite a few threads over the years following custom projects! Maybe more than a hundred- who knows?

I recall threads on custom projects with A&A, John Luderno, Patrick Barta, OlliN, Robert Moc, Arms Bohemia, Leo Todeschini, and probably others as well!

This might be the first spear related one but I could be wrong here as well.


Yes and here are a couple of mine:

A & A Langue de Boeuf, follows the whole thing from concept to finished polearm with some progress pics over 3 pages.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4397&start=0

Winged spear/Partisan with/by Michael Pikula, same progress report and design process shown over 4 pages.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16789&start=0

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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W. Knight




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PostPosted: Sun 09 Oct, 2011 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Thibodeau,

Those links are really appreciated. Happy Happy Happy I'm fairly new to these forums, and I find the search function seldom seems to bring up what I am searching for! Confused I probably just don't know how to use it properly. (I actually tried some searches like "custom John Lundemo sword" or "custom Patrick Barta" and came up with nil [relative to what I was looking for], but then I know it is all in how the search terms are worded, and punctuated [like quote marks, plus signs or using the word "and" perhaps?] Somehow I always have better luck just googling and then looking at the multitude of myArmoury results that come up on the first two pages of search results when any medieval weapon or subject is searched) That's why I say I just don't know how to use it properly I'm sure. Wink Anyway, after a quick look, these two threads look to be what I indicated I would like to see. Soon as I get a chance I will read them through...

Thanks!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 12:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Knight wrote:
Mr. Thibodeau,

Those links are really appreciated. Happy Happy Happy I'm fairly new to these forums, and I find the search function seldom seems to bring up what I am searching for! Confused !


I'm not that great at searching either, not being familiar with all the " tricks " that help narrow the searches, but since I've been here a while I usually have an idea what was discussed before and one or two key words will get me " close " to what I'm looking for when I already know generally the subject matter or the Author or which sub-Forum to restrict the search too.

Those two links I found by first typing in the search field " Langue de Boeuf " and then " Winged Spear and Partisan ": After that it only had to scroll down a few dozen Topics to find the ones I was searching for to be able to copy/paste the link to them.

One word searches may often give you multiple pages of Topics to look at, but many of them might be interesting when you are just going a random browsing just to explore the site.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 2:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Yes and here are a couple of mine:

A & A Langue de Boeuf, follows the whole thing from concept to finished polearm with some progress pics over 3 pages.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4397&start=0

Winged spear/Partisan with/by Michael Pikula, same progress report and design process shown over 4 pages.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=16789&start=0



Jean, can I come over and play with your toys some time? Laughing Out Loud You have some of the most unusual custom works and I think you'd be a hoot to hang out with.

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find the dearth of information related to 11th. and 12th. c. spears as well as the seeming absence in museum displays really interesting, and a bit annoying. Confused Happy

The spear/lance was ubiquitous in this period as a primary weapon. The sword would have been a much more specialized and relatively rare weapon, with impact instruments like the mace and club according to period sources, even rarer. Certainly, we always have the question of classist and romantic ideals as a shaping agent in the production of period sources.

We see the spear being used by both cavalry and infantry figures in period illuminations and tapastry.

So has corrosion and time simply left us fewer examples relative to swords of the period or are museums less inclined to display spear/lance heads in exhibits? It's difficult to say.
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W. Knight




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Krause,
Yes that is a good point. I think a lot of people do forget that the spear (in one form or another) was the commonest weapon used in all of history, no matter what culture, time period, or social class one was in (until relatively modern times of course)

Am I correct in assuming that the spear Mr. Barta is making for you will be an infantry weapon, rather than cavalry, since it has the lugs on it? If so, is this for a particular kit or is it just for your collection (I know weapons by this craftsman are considered fine art, as well as historical weaponry)?
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Vaclav Homan




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ask for translation some Hungarian who visit this web. I have seen here Hungarian from Hungaria, Romania and Slovakia.
Spears 11 and 12 century are not frequent in excavation but not rare like axe this period.
This problem is more finding context than amounts.
Typology of 11, 12 century spear, lanze is not different like this wearpons in younger and older centuries.

There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

W. Knight wrote:
Mr. Krause,
Yes that is a good point. I think a lot of people do forget that the spear (in one form or another) was the commonest weapon used in all of history, no matter what culture, time period, or social class one was in (until relatively modern times of course)

Am I correct in assuming that the spear Mr. Barta is making for you will be an infantry weapon, rather than cavalry, since it has the lugs on it? If so, is this for a particular kit or is it just for your collection (I know weapons by this craftsman are considered fine art, as well as historical weaponry)?


The question of infantry or cavalry usage of the spear is complicated, especially during the Early/High Middle Ages when the contrast between what we call the lance and what we call the spear was non-existant or certainly tenuous and blurred. It isn't clear that contemporaries thought of these as different weapons at all. Unfortunately, without any surviving hafts we can't see precisely how long a given spear or lance would have been or if some examples were relatively shorter than others.

So how long would a perspective haft have been for a spear meant for cavalry versus one more oriented towrds infantry use? Would the cavalry example have been longer, I suppose we would think so. On the other hand perhaps the same weapon would have been used for either purpose so a uniform length was used. We see some spear heads, like the one I will have reproduced, with rather broad and distinct blade forms, even having some cutting potential, and then we see some which are more simple "oversized arrowhead" forms with stout forms of conical, square, or thick diamond cross-sections. These type would be purely piecing weapons.

The spear was such a common implement over Europe and it's usage and form must have been varied and dynamic.

Regarding spears with lugs like the one I will have made, we have illustrations of them being used by figures both on and off horses. The spears on the Bayeaux Tapastry, for instance have lugs.

Given that, I will like to think of my spear as an infantry weapon, for whatever use that is. I will likely choose a 7ft. haft as I feel this will be a good height and adequate guess as the lower end of haft lengths, plue anything longer will get very difficult to store!!

So long story short, I have more questions than answers regarding the martial use of the spear in the period 11th.-12th. C. But with the help of Patrick Barta I hope to own a beautiful and reasonably accurate reproduction of a period spear head.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Vaclav Homan wrote:
Language in this Book is Magyar.


Can you read it? If so, could you comment on the meaning of the various indicators related to the larger spear head shown on page 88?


Those (psz, ph...) are just the size-marks of the different parts of the spearhead. (wing-wideness, bladelenght etc.) You can find them in the text with x y cm.
Penge means blade, köpü: socket, él:edge, szárny: wing, gerinc: ridge.

Could we see the other pages, too, please??? :-)))

Zoltán



 Attachment: 87.36 KB
Bogenschuetzen_Reiter-1.jpg
Stuttgarter Bilderpschalter, 800-810 AD. Avars vs Franks


Last edited by Henrik Zoltan Toth on Tue 11 Oct, 2011 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
Vaclav Homan wrote:
Language in this Book is Magyar.


Can you read it? If so, could you comment on the meaning of the various indicators related to the larger spear head shown on page 88?


Those (psz, ph...) are just the size-marks of the different parts of the spearhead. (wing-wideness, bladelenght etc.) You can find them in the text with x y cm.
Penge means blade, köpü: socket, él:edge, szárny: wing, gerinc: ridge.

Could we see the other pages, too, please??? :-)))


I've seen these kind of spears on Hermann-historica.

We got here a nice, long rus spearhead exvacated from the Danube, with p.welded blade and silver inlayed socket, but I got just a bad quality black and white photo somewhere...

Zoltán
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Gregg Sobocinski




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to Jeremy for promising to share this project with us! I look forward to seeing more good-quality spears on this forum. Now for the waiting.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

Patrick sent me the sketch of the project. I think it looks really nice. To me it looks to be fairly oriented to the thrust but we will see when it materializes.

The body/blade, and wings will be iron and the edge will be steel. The spearhead will be composed of 4 parts: body/blade, edge, and each lug/wing. The head will be afixed with one rivet. The size can be seen in the measurement markers on the sketch.

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