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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:38 am    Post subject: Messer training         Reply with quote

As already said in the discussion about cuttlas techniques i am a member of a trainingsgroup that, among others, trains with langes messer.
Finding proper training material is however a big problem. We currently use wooden wasters or small shinai but they come with limits such as being unbendable, or bouncing to much.
Any suggestions on what we might use as training weapons?
i do know for example that there is a blacksmith that makes messer-shaped fechtfeders.

Thanks in advance

member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I recently took Christian Tobler's introductory messer class at WMAW. There were a number of blunt steel messers there, as well as very nice synthetic (nylon?) ones. Unfortunately I don't recall who the maker was, I would recommend PMing Christian.
Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Christopher Treichel




Location: Metro D.C.
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Last time I trained with Christian at ISMAC he was using the steel messer trainers from Albion. Scott at Darkwood is also working on a steel messer trainer.
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Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian uses the Albion Maestro line messer. He had two at a seminar I attended for Seloharr Staten Island. They handled great and while they were brand new I'd assume, judging from the quality of the other offerings in that line, they'll hold up great. If that's out of your budget you can either go to Arma Bohemia and order there's, an image of which is right here I'm pretty sure it's blunt by default but I'd check anyway and get them to round out that tip while your at it. Or you could wait for the Hanwei one that's coming out but I'm not sure they have a release date on that one yet. You can check it out right here
Winter is coming
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arms & Armor is working on a messer blunt. I think I saw several in use at WMAW 2011 and handled one, but you would have to contact A&A to see if they are in full production yet.

Using a blunt steel arming sword is almost a possibility, since they are fairly similar weapons.
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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the heads-up everyone.
we tried training with steel messer in the past and they are great for practicing techniques but when you start sparring even blunt steel is considered to dangerous. Also there is a risk when you do drills at high speed.

member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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Andreas Auer




Location: Innsbruck, Tirol, Austria, Europe
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

have you tried these...?...http://www.trainingsschwerter.com/Training/Trainingswaffen/Alu/Langes-Messer-aus-Alu-Typ-Sparring.html....i use them and they are great....

Andreas

The secret is,
to keep that pointy end thingy away from you...
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
Last time I trained with Christian at ISMAC he was using the steel messer trainers from Albion. Scott at Darkwood is also working on a steel messer trainer.


some images of Darkwoods messer

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.5001...9563351138
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1015...9563351138
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sjors B wrote:
thanks for the heads-up everyone.
we tried training with steel messer in the past and they are great for practicing techniques but when you start sparring even blunt steel is considered to dangerous. Also there is a risk when you do drills at high speed.


I'm curious, what do you wear for protection during sparing?

Personally, I wear a thick gambeson, WTC gorget, hourglass gauntlets and a Windrose WMA helmet. I consider this good enough for mildly intense longsword and never considered it not being safe enough for blunt steel messer.

[Edit: Forgot about my gauntlets]

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Last edited by T. Arndt on Tue 20 Sep, 2011 10:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The WMA helmets are a very good idea for hard messer training. So would torso protection, an athletics cup, metal or plastic greaves and gauntlets be too. Going true full force all out with a rebated steel great messer, similar to those Polish full on battles would probably require a proper full plate harness or equivalent to be decently safe like they use and my guess is that some injuries will still occur.

For lighter sparring you wouldn't need any of that of course, but that's something very different.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Arndt wrote:
Sjors B wrote:
thanks for the heads-up everyone.
we tried training with steel messer in the past and they are great for practicing techniques but when you start sparring even blunt steel is considered to dangerous. Also there is a risk when you do drills at high speed.


I'm curious, what do you wear for protection during sparing?

Personally, I wear a thick gambeson, WTC gorget, hourglass gauntlets and a Windrose WMA helmet. I consider this good enough for mildly intense longsword and never considered it not being safe enough for blunt steel messer.

[Edit: Forgot about my gauntlets]


for general sparring we use fencing masks, gambersons or fechtmeistersjacke, eskrima padding and different type of gloves (padded gloves to Lacross gloves). however, not everybody has, or can afford these sets so we are always looking for some middle way. Nylon wasters and feders often do the job, but they are hard to get in messer shape (except the aluminium ones, i'm checking those out now)

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http://www.historicalshows.com/
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Answers... from WMAW 2011.

The follow companies have steel blunts in production:

Albion (Hits like a mule in free play)

Darkwood Armoury (Looks like it would hit like a mule in freeplay, lighter than the Albion )

Arms & Armour (Lightest of the bunch, freeplays well with proper gear)

CHT owns a set of Albion blunts that he did not bring to WMAW. He ended up buying a set by Arms & Armour at the event the first day. He had Jessica Finley & I use them for the demo bout at the feast. They played well even if we did not. Eek!

I'm the one that brought a bag of synthetic messers that one of my students made, for CHT's class as lenders (non production item)

I also had a few of the aluminum messers made by Walter Neubauer of Germany. He has a lighten model for fencing that is quite popular in Germany. His prices are quite fair. PM me for info. I think his base prices are about $250 US

It was nice to see such an offering of steel blunts at one event .It's becoming the golden age of messer. YAY!!! Cool

Of everything I saw, held and used last weekend, I would buy the A&A one for $380 as a nice solo, drilling, freeplay weapon as they handle very nicely.

Plan on hand, forearm, neck, head protection with a padded coat (and control, control, control) for freeplay.

Cheers,

DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 419

PostPosted: Tue 20 Sep, 2011 5:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sjors B wrote:
for general sparring we use fencing masks, gambersons or fechtmeistersjacke, eskrima padding and different type of gloves (padded gloves to Lacross gloves). however, not everybody has, or can afford these sets so we are always looking for some middle way. Nylon wasters and feders often do the job, but they are hard to get in messer shape (except the aluminium ones, i'm checking those out now)

Unfortunately, the better something is at simulating a sharp sword the more dangerous it is. The problem with wood, split bamboo, or nylon wasters is that they behave very differently from sharp steel in the cross (and wood is just as dangerous as a steel blunt). I have no experience with aluminum.

Personally, I chose to wait until I have enough skill and kit to spar safely with my chosen weapons; a few hundred hours of practice and $1,000 of kit aren't really very much.
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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed 21 Sep, 2011 1:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with you, my personal intention in Historical martial arts is quite the same. I dont mind investing time and money in my training, but there are also members who participate on a lower level (of skill, interest, investment etc.) and we want to offer them a chance to participate as well.
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http://www.historicalshows.com/
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear all,

As David said, the trainers in my class were the new Arms & Armor messers. They are nothing short of awesome. I was also impressed with Scott Wilson of Darkwood Armory's new messer trainers. Those are a little heavier, but handled extremely well too.

The Albions are lovely, and I love the two I own, but they're best suited for drilling and more controlled bouting.

Echoing, and perhaps augmenting, some of the safety gear suggestions, I'd say for the A&A's you'd need a gambeson or otherwise padded jacket, hard elbow protection (get some inexpensive steel elbows from Windrose), a reinforced fencing mask w/back of the head protection or, better yet, a Windrose Fiore bouting helmet, and good hand protection of some form. Oh, and of course, a cup.

That's all you need, along with discipline and control, to fight with this trainers.

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Sa'ar Nudel




Location: Haifa, Israel
Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just came back from the Czech Republic where I had met with Ing. Jiri Krondak of Fabri Armorum. He produces a vast array of arms & armor for a lot of groups all over europe and emphasize on safety and rigidity. While can make fine & sharp display or cutting weapons as I've seen, most of the products are plain (hence affordable for large numbers, as in fencing groups) and have very good price-to-quality ratio. Check his messers here: http://fabri-armorum.com/english/?id=tesaky.php
I handled both versions of #4, while the regular one is robust the "feather" version is considerabely lighter.

Curator of Beit Ussishkin, regional nature & history museum, Upper Galilee.
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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i'm familiar with Jiri's messer, fought with them myself often.
they are very fine on weigth and balance and still very strong
checking out his site now, for the first time in years, i like his new stuff

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Mike Capanelli




Location: Whitestone, NY
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone have a link to the A&A trainers? I can't find them on their site.
Winter is coming
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Christian Henry Tobler
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Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They're not on the site yet Mike. I believe Craig sold all the ones he brought to WMAW and has to assemble some more upon his return.

I'll direct him to this thread so he can chime in.

Take care,

CHT

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Sep, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Messer Trainers         Reply with quote

Hello

As Christian mentioned I am working on assembling a couple to take pictures of for the website as I did not get a chance to on the first group. Literally ran out the door to get to WMAW with weapons still warm from being worked on in my hand. Should have them up in a couple of days. They look quite similar to the ones I did for Bill Grandy pictured here with some slight changes and a lighter weight.

Best
Craig
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