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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Hanwei Tinker early medieval or norman sword?         Reply with quote

The following question might be a bit silly, but here goes:

I am thinking to get a Hanwei-Tinker one hander. Aesthetically I like the Norman more than the early medieval. All things considering which one would be a better choice for cutting and as a generic medieval sword? Which one has the better handling and balance? Also If I ever try my hand with sword and buckler, which one of the blunt versions is better for that?

I own a sharp H-T longsword and like the sword. A good project piece, I have tried to re-wrap the handle and the result was aesthetically not very good, allthough the grip is better now. Also the blade needs additional sharpening. Since it is easy to take the sword apart it is a good sword to train your customicing skills. That would give the advantage to early medieval sword, but I dont like the coin-like pommel.
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JosÚ-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi

The blunt versions of Tinker-Hanwei swords have an edge too thin, about one milimeter. Perhaps good for soft training but not good for re-enactment, or total free sparring.

At least, that's my opinion, after I've handled the Hanwei-Tinker Early Viking Sword, blunt version.

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Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Hanwei Tinker early medieval or norman sword?         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
...I am thinking to get a Hanwei-Tinker one hander. Aesthetically I like the Norman more than the early medieval. All things considering which one would be a better choice for cutting and as a generic medieval sword? Which one has the better handling and balance?... I own a sharp H-T longsword and like the sword. A good project piece....


First - must ask... is this the HT you are considering? http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2404
If not, nothing following this applies Happy.

These are very GOOD swords - I own two of them. I consider them superior to the AT Practical (which I also own - just my opinion). They are easily customized, and have a very GOOD fit & finish. As far as cutting... worth asking what the potential target is Happy. These will do a good job with either Milk Bottles, or Edain Happy.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.


Last edited by Dean F. Marino on Tue 06 Sep, 2011 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Hanwei Tinker early medieval or norman sword?         Reply with quote

Dean F. Marino wrote:
Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
...I am thinking to get a Hanwei-Tinker one hander. Aesthetically I like the Norman more than the early medieval. All things considering which one would be a better choice for cutting and as a generic medieval sword? Which one has the better handling and balance?... I own a sharp H-T longsword and like the sword. A good project piece....


First - must ask... is this the HT you are considering? http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH2404
If not, nothing following this applies Happy.

These are very GOOD swords - I own two of them. I consider them superior to the Tinker Practical (which I also own - just my opinion). They are easily customized, and have a very GOOD fit & finish. As far as cutting... worth asking what the potential target is Happy. These will do a good job with either Milk Bottles, or Edain Happy.


Yes, this is one of the options. The second is Hanwei-Tinker Norman. I have wanted a medieval one hander for some time, my original idea was something that would not have looked out of place in my home country Finland during early medieval period. My first choice was Hanwei Tinker Viking. There have been some sword finds of that era in Finland.
http://www.helsinki.fi/arkeologia/rautaesine/...52_37a.htm
http://www.helsinki.fi/arkeologia/rautaesine/...52_37b.htm

Suontaka Sword is of course the finest specimen from Finland, but costly to reproduce.

The Hanwei-Tinker Norman has the general looks of this sword: http://suomenmuseotonline.fi/fi/kohde/Arkeolo...mIndex=474

Of course, there are lots of later sword finds and the words were usually imported. Still, the original question is: which one has the better balance and feel? The norman might be a bit more tip heavy?

I plan to rewrap the handle anyway. Easier with nut attached pommels. When I am pleased with results I could epoxy the whole thing together, make a mix of epoxy and steel file dust and fill the cavity in pommel to give it peened look? Still it could be taken apart with heat.


Last edited by Pauli Vennervirta on Tue 06 Sep, 2011 1:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, this one would also be mighty interesting to reproduce, maybe using a HT longsword blade as the basis. A find from the Castle of Turku. It has been dated to 1450 or later. It was hidden in the castle chimney!

http://kaponieeri.blogspot.com/2010/09/turun-...iekka.html

And another find, this time from viking era: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HjIEhVKLPzo/TH-tJa3...762_01.jpg
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Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have both swords (blunt versions). They're both great. The early medieval handles very fast and light because most of it's weight is near the cross guard. The norman has it's weight much more towards the tip and is much more of a chopper. It's heavier to handle. I do MS-I.33 with both but I prefer the early medieval sword for it. I did have a little problem with the early medieval hex nut construction (the tang broke) but KoA sent a replacement and our group hasn't had problems since. The Norman is peened.

One tip: The blunt edges are square, not rounded. The square edges can give sharp burrs. I recommend you take an iron file and round them off before you use the blunt swords for reenactment or training steel-on-steel.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Sean Poynter




Location: Chicago (NW suburbs), IL, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't comment on the medieval, but I do own the sharp version of the norman and I agree it is fairly blade heavy.
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Paul Greathouse




Location: Stow, Ohio
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli,

I own both of these swords, and have done customization on both of them. Just because the blade is a little bit more ridged on the early knight sword I would go with that, especially if you are going to use them for sword and buckler. That being said I will let you know that the knight sword does tend to get slightly wobbly after a time and the Norman is put togeather a little bit more solidly. Also, refering to one comment above, in the past year or so the blades have been made a bit more sturdy, and can take a heck of a lot of punishment. If you break one you were doing something incredibly stupid or they were not stored properly.

All the best,

Paul
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For film stunts, controlled martial art sparring and training the Tinker blunts are great. For competition fighting and re-eactment bashing they're perhaps a little too little blunted. Tinker intended them primarily for the former after all and for that use they were to have as much of the feel of a real sword as possible and I feel he's done a smashing job with that. They're not at all the tip heavy steel "clubs" you normally see when looking at most blunts but actually feel very similar to the sharp versions of the same swords while being much safer than sharps for controlled sparring.
The edges are indeed square, not round. Perhaps one can carefully round them some more after need and taste like Sander suggests?

What I like abut the Norman in general is that it fits a wide historical timeframe, as the Gaddhjalt fittings were in use from 10th to 13th century and one of the most common sword types, at least for the beginning and middle of that timeframe. It's also versatile, comfortable to hold and IMO still quite asethetically pleasing in its' simplicity.
The Tinker Norman is far superior in capturing an historical sword like this than the older Hanwei Norman and is frankly unbeatable at that pricerange for the quality, balance and look of it. The scabbard is allright but not really up to my standard, but then I'd just make my own from scratch (actually one of my favorite things about getting a new sword anyway) or for you lazy rich guys just get one made from one of the great scabbardmakers out there. I'd wrap the handle with silver wire too, but that's just a matter of preference and also something anyone can do themselves really.

Another sword to look out for is the new Hanwei Crecy. I've tried the sharp version and I'm in love. It's balanced for thrust primarily but can cut also and feels like a natural extension of your arm. Haven't seen a blunt version of it yet though.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge


Last edited by Johan Gemvik on Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Greathouse wrote:
That being said I will let you know that the knight sword does tend to get slightly wobbly after a time and the Norman is put togeather a little bit more solidly.


Hi Paul, is this a case of the Norman being fully peened and the knight sword isn't?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I own the Norman.

One very nice thing about the sword's setup is that it actually has a wood scabbard, or mine does anyway. The rest of the Hanwei Tinker line tends to have fiberglass-cored scabbards rather than wood, so this is a step in the right direction as far as authenticity is concerned. It's not an amazing scabbard, mind you, and the suspension rings are highly inaccurate, but the rings come off easily enough-- the leather bands holding them on were only friction-fitted. After that, the most grossly out of place bit is the leather throat at the top, and that I personally can live with until I rig up an integral suspension of some sort.

Is it heavy? Somewhat, but does she flow through the cut! Make no bones about it... that's what she's for and that's what she does best Happy I really love it, after my H/T bastard she's the only other sword I have that REALLY feels like a true weapon and not just a chunk of sharp steel. The only thing I plan to change about it is taking off the mirror polish from the fittings, touching up the edge and adding a belt... otherwise, I'm very happy with it as it is, more so than the bastard sword!
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Charles Richmond




Location: Casstown Ohio
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The wooden liner at the throat of the Norman Scabbard only extends down a couple of inches, and then the scabbard is Hanweis usual fiberglass affair.

The wooden insert is placed at the top to provide some tension on the sword and to eliminate any side to side play in the scabbard. They used wood instead of their usual leather or rubber shims on the Norman due to the fact of the leather locket versus a metal one. The wood looks better with the leather locket, as the leather does not wrap over the top of the scabbard as a metal locket would, disguising the throat of the scabbard.

Look down the throat of your Norman scabbard with a flashlight, and I think that you will find the above to be true.
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Huh, okay, didn't know that. Bit of a disappointment. At least it looks better than the gaping maw of my other H/T scabbard...

To be fair, the fit of the sword in the scabbard is rather better than on the bastard; it still rattles a bit further down, but it doesn't fall out. Can't trust the scabbard to stay on the bastard, on the other hand.

One thing I forgot to note about the Norman is that as it's peened, the pommel does look a bit rough; the polish job to smooth it up is best described as 'slightly slipshod'. I don't mind it terribly, gives it a bit of flavor in my opinion; however, this may be a defect for others. Really a matter of personal taste.
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Paul Greathouse




Location: Stow, Ohio
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Paul Greathouse wrote:
That being said I will let you know that the knight sword does tend to get slightly wobbly after a time and the Norman is put togeather a little bit more solidly.


Hi Paul, is this a case of the Norman being fully peened and the knight sword isn't?


I am not sure why the knight loosened up on me, as they are both peened in the same fashion. All I can say is one loosened and the other didn't
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Greathouse wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:
Paul Greathouse wrote:
That being said I will let you know that the knight sword does tend to get slightly wobbly after a time and the Norman is put togeather a little bit more solidly.


Hi Paul, is this a case of the Norman being fully peened and the knight sword isn't?


I am not sure why the knight loosened up on me, as they are both peened in the same fashion. All I can say is one loosened and the other didn't


Out of curiosity, which 'knight sword' are you talking about? The 'Early Medieval Single Handed Sword'? That, I believe, is never peened; it's always assembled with a keyed pommel and hex-key. If you have a Norman assembled with a hex key, that's quite unusual; even the blunt Normans are peened.

Something that does crop up with the Hanwei/Tinker swords, at least the hex-nut ones, is that the grip does tend to become loose over time. Two basic explanations for this-- either the wood changes size from humidity differences, or it becomes slightly compressed due to use. It's easily enough fixed, though, either by replacing it or adding a leather washer.
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Charles Richmond




Location: Casstown Ohio
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
Huh, okay, didn't know that. Bit of a disappointment. At least it looks better than the gaping maw of my other H/T scabbard...

To be fair, the fit of the sword in the scabbard is rather better than on the bastard; it still rattles a bit further down, but it doesn't fall out. Can't trust the scabbard to stay on the bastard, on the other hand.

One thing I forgot to note about the Norman is that as it's peened, the pommel does look a bit rough; the polish job to smooth it up is best described as 'slightly slipshod'. I don't mind it terribly, gives it a bit of flavor in my opinion; however, this may be a defect for others. Really a matter of personal taste.


The throat on the Hanwei Norman scabbard is a bit more visually pleasing than some of their other efforts, and the wooden shim at the top does give one the impression of a wooden cored scabbard which is check in the plus column for someone wanting their scabbard to look authentic.


As info, the leather is not glued to the scabbard cores on the Hanwei/Tinker pieces, and one can slit the sewn seam up the back to add risers or embellishments and the like to the scabbard, you can then resew the seam or use a securement method that is more suitable to your liking or skill set.
The leather is fairly thin and pliable, and you can mold it to risers or decorative patterns quite readily once dampened with a wet cloth. Using suitable glue, and this method, you can achieve some very pleasing effects on a rather mundane scabbard.

There is an example and a tutorial of sorts posted by a member on the SBG forum provided in the link below.

Hanwei/Tinker scabbard modification
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep, 2011 2:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like I would like a sword with the early medieval blade and Norman fittings. Thanks everybody for information, but my choice has not been made any easier. Big Grin Choices, choices...

So the norman is slightly heavier and more tip-heavy, but might make a better cutter? I also like the brasil nut pommel and gaddhjalt guard. Since I primarily seek a cutter, secondarily another blunt sword for training and a sword of late pagan/early medieval era, the norman (or the viking) would be the best choises as sharps and the early medieval blunt for training. Looks like wheel pommeled swords were not unheard of in Finland during this era, so early medieval is not out of question as a sharp:
http://suomenmuseotonline.fi/fi/kohde/Arkeolo...emIndex=31
This sword has been dated to 1050 - 1250

Swedes did three crusades to Finland between 1150 and 1293 and that is the time frame (or slightly before the first one) I am most interested in. The sword would have to be something a wealthy Finn of that era might have had. Still the Suontaka sword would be a prime choise, but expensive.

Thank you Charles for the tip about the scabbard, this gives some interesting possibilities in decorating it and making it more "Finnish". For example this might look nice on the leather:


This symbol has been used to bring good luck and is found for example in Finnish jewelry.
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, wheel pommes started appearing much earlier than most think of it. Basically the wheel pommel "knighlty sword" is just one variant of the Gaddhjalt.

Yes, I think the Norman makes a great cutter, practically identical to the same type of sword I made for my brother out of a bare Tinker viking blade. If you feel it's tip heavy, metal wire the gavel to weigh it a little more to the hand and try the index finger over the crossguard grip. It'll make it nice and lively, then for heavy cuts, just slip the hand down.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov, 2011 4:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I decided to get the Norman. I ordered the sword from Knightshop and got a very good looking product for the price. True, the scabbard is a bit plain but I will do some modifications myself, I got plenty of ideas from this site looking what others have done. Most likely I will add some risers under the leather and attach a bridge I will make of some hardwood. The handle is actually quite good so I am not sure if any customising is needed. Maybe I will just wet it slightly and wrap it with cord to get a nice pattern on the leather?

The sword sure has some heft to it, but in a nice kind of way. To me it is not too tip heavy, it has a purposefull feel. A dedicated cutter. The blade does not need very much sharpening, only a touch up.

By the way, the whole ordering process went very smoothly and delivery was, if not quick, prompt enough. Also the shop delivered information how the order was proceeding quite well.

Stylishly the only thing I don't like in the sword is the quard, which is quite broad. Would it be too unhistorical if I shorten it a bit to get it to resemble earlier viking hilts?
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