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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Pictures of extant normal/nasal helmets         Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm looking for pictures of extant normal / nasal helms. Preferably western europe, 11th-13th century but please contribute of you have pictures of other helmets as well. Let's make a nice collection Happy

I know of this one in the Kunsthostorisches Museum in Vienna (image courtesy of Wikipedia):



That's the only image I have so far.

I'm looking into this because I'm searching for a suitable helmet design that will work for The Battle of Hastings as well as the mid-13th century. Now that I have ordered a maille coif, it's time I started shopping for a helmet Happy

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Jamie Szudy




Location: Malaga Spain & Madison, Wisconsin
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's the conical helmet attributed to St. Wenceslas, though it is eastern European.

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! I have seen many replicas of that helmet but this is the first time I have seen the original. Good to know it's probably eastern European. I didn't know that. It's also good to know that this is apparently the brim of one helm put on another and then used as a relic (e.g. not something you'd find on the battlefield?)

In the mean time, Flickr was able to provide me with a view from the back of the helmet in my original post (link):

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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Robert Rootslane




Location: Estonia
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a bit offtopic perhaps but concerns helmets nontheless.
I have recently heard that in addition to the gjermundbu helmet theare has been a few other finds, about the "visor" part of helmets from that time.

One i heard was from Tyle, denmark, and another from gotland.

Google wasnt very helpful. Does anyone have any pictures?
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Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On this web are helmets 10-12 century western slavonic area
http://www.curiavitkov.cz/valka21.html

There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another excellent webpage for nasal helms: http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/r...guide.html
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks all. These are good articles. I already discovered some more interesting tidbits (long live Google Translate). For example, that many nasals seem to have hooks. Even on helmets that don't have them (like the one I posted) have evidence suggesting that it did once have a hook but broke off. These hooks at the end of your nasal would be to hang your maille from I guess.
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J. Kari




Location: Estonia
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PostPosted: Mon 30 May, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert Rootslane wrote:
a bit offtopic perhaps but concerns helmets nontheless.
I have recently heard that in addition to the gjermundbu helmet theare has been a few other finds, about the "visor" part of helmets from that time.

One i heard was from Tyle, denmark, and another from gotland.

Google wasnt very helpful. Does anyone have any pictures?



AS for the spectacle "visor" there is find from Denmark, but from Aarhus.







One helmet is from Lithuania. Somewhere near place called Salmas as I have heard.




Can anyone provide more material or info about these two?
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jun, 2011 9:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see that quite a few extant nasal helmets have a little hook on the end of the nasal (or, evidence that there once was a little hook). I presume that this was to attach a ventail to? I was wondering if this is an eastern European thing or if this was found in the west as well. Also, I was wondering if there was any extant artwork showing people wearing such helmets.
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E. Storesund





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert Rootslane wrote:
a bit offtopic perhaps but concerns helmets nontheless.
I have recently heard that in addition to the gjermundbu helmet theare has been a few other finds, about the "visor" part of helmets from that time.

One i heard was from Tyle, denmark, and another from gotland.

Google wasnt very helpful. Does anyone have any pictures?


I have head of such finds as well. There most cringeworthy are the rumours of private collectors sitting on undocumented viking and iron age helmet finds.

Pushing this thread even more off-course:
There is at least the case of an eyebrow from a "vendel type" helmet from Uppåkra:


Pushing this thread even more off-course:
At first glance it looks to me to be decorated in style II, which is consistent with the styles of the late sixth and up into seventh century.
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Paulius B. Voss




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J. Kari wrote:


One helmet is from Lithuania. Somewhere near place called Salmas as I have heard.



Hello,
This helmet is on exhibit now at Vytautas the Great War Museum. Exact finding location and circumstances are unknown. Semicircular helmet consists of two metal pieces, reinforced with an iron bar at the bottom (riveted with two rivets). A helmet is decorated with three longitudinal lines.
Lithuanian archaeologist R. Volkaite-Kulikauskiene, in her own article, about the earliest helmets in Lithuania, equate this helmet to Vendel era helmets, but for some reason this article summarizes the helmet to the 11th century. The exact analogue of the helmet is unknown. According to the form and method of manufacture very similar helmet was found in Slovenia and dated to the 5th or 6th century. In the directory of "Cf. Catalogue of the Armoury in Vienna. Volume I," are few examples of similar helmets from Sveti Vid (Dalmatian Mediterranean area (Serbia)), and Steinbrun area (eastern Austria), dated to the fifth century. This suggests, that the helmet should be dated at least from the 5th to the 7th century.

Source - http://www.vilkatlakai.lt/balt-ginkluot/almai/169
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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's one that's housed in the Nederlands Legermuseum. It's providence is Hainburg, Lower Austria. 10th-11th century, I'd say. Very typical style. Cheers!

-Gregory




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Paulius B. Voss




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2011 12:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another one helmet, which can be dated to the 12th century, was found near Slonim (Belarus). Attributed to Lithuanians.
Here is an article about this helmet (sadly, in Russian) - http://xxx.xxx/2010/12/08/slonimskiy-...denie.html
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2011 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I must confess that I'm rather fond of a nasal-helm that I've seen a few pictures of. It's main feature being that it appears to be made out of four plates riveted directly to one another (so not really a spangenhelm I guess).
And that Swordmasters site seems pretty legit, and once one figures out how to navigate it, it offers some pretty cool pictures and sources that I don't believe I've ever seen before.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
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Jonathan Blair




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Nov, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To resurrect an old thread, how much evidence is there for painting or bluing nasal helmets as a preservation method or for decoration?
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Nov, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the late 12th century, Bertran de Born is singing of "helms of color".
http://colecizj.easyvserver.com/povb4038.htm
Massas e brans, elms de color
E scutz trauchar e desgarnir
...

This was before enclosed helms, though there were some early masks or T-nasals by then. Some of these late-12th century helms are more hemisperical than conical, but some have nasals. Red and green are the most common colors in manuscripts when a neutral or non-steel color is obvious. Some early heraldic markings are seen on late-12th century helms--crosses, fleurs, bends, frets, etc.--which seem to have been applied by paint.








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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can someone post some of the evidence for the hooks on the nasals? I am having some trouble finding solid references to this being a widespread practice.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Have you seen this? http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/r...guide.html
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Nov, 2012 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! This helps, and the pictures are fairly clear. I think it's interesting to note to seemingly hook-less nature of many helmets in drawings and statues. Is it possible that the hooks were removable, or that there may have been helms made with lacing holes in the nasal, which may or may not be later depicted?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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