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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 12 May, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Iron Naue type II swords.         Reply with quote

I am planning on making an iron (or mild or high-carbon steel) Naue type II sword soon. I am wondering about flanges. I know that iron Halstatt swords do not have flange, but that most bronze swords (including Halstatt's?) do have grip flanges. Are these flanges only necessary because of the lesser strength of bronze? Are they lacking on forged iron swords because of the differing method of construction? If flanges are correct on iron Naue's, how might I go about forming them? I have been having a hard time finding close-up pics of iron Naue II's (most are pretty corroded anyway.)Can anyone help me? Pics, advice or any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 12:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk's typology charts show all the various Aegean sword types using both Sandars and Killian-Dirlmeier typologies.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18382
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 2:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for replying Dan. No iron swords are shown (unless I missed them), so that does not help much. To put my question another way, are there any changes in construction with the transition to iron. I use Halstatt as an example; iron Halstatt swords lack flanges or have only very slight flange-like flaring, while bronze Halstatt swords seem to have typical bronze-age flanges. The only pictures I can find of iron Naue II's are of very corroded examples and do not show the hilts very well, so I can not tell if they are like the iron Halstatts.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After looking at more Halstatt swords, it seems that some of the bronze examples have little to no flanges too. Might be irrelevant to look at Halstatt's, but they are sort of a parallel developement spanning the transition from bronze to iron.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 5:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The iron Naue swords found in Greek area are similar to the straight edged bronze naue swords preceeding them. They have flanges in the grip part.

Hallstatt sword in bronze and iron do not often have flanges. It is not typical for these kinds of swords.

Flanges or not seems to depend on type rather than material.

Regardless presence of flanges, the early iron swords of Naue tand Hallstatt type are pretty demanding as blade forging goes. Flanges, midribs and groves in many different combinations. My impression is that they also used scrapers and stones to define the shape. I have documented an iron Hallstatt sword with antennae hilt in the british museum. In places the blade had original surface under black patina.
Very fine surface. Must have been very fine satin finish or burnished to mirror originally. Ridges were crisp and strongly defined. Quite stunning work.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much Peter. I think for starters I will make one out of mild steel with work-hardened edges and shape the blade midrib and grooves with grinders,burins and chisels. I am thinking that I can start out with some very thick stock and grind out the tang to form the flanges. I have always wanted to do some test cutting with a mild steel sword. It does indeed look like this will be a most challenging project. I am wondering about blade thickness, maximum flange thickness and distal taper. Does 10-12 mm at the flanges, 8-10 mm at blade base and 5-7 mm near cop sound reasonably correct? Thank you again Peter.
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Dustin R. Reagan





Joined: 09 May 2006

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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Thank you very much Peter. I think for starters I will make one out of mild steel with work-hardened edges and shape the blade midrib and grooves with grinders,burins and chisels. I am thinking that I can start out with some very thick stock and grind out the tang to form the flanges. I have always wanted to do some test cutting with a mild steel sword. It does indeed look like this will be a most challenging project. I am wondering about blade thickness, maximum flange thickness and distal taper. Does 10-12 mm at the flanges, 8-10 mm at blade base and 5-7 mm near cop sound reasonably correct? Thank you again Peter.


Doing serious stock-reduction like that just to produce flanges seems like serious masochism to me.

I believe the flanges may have been formed through a peening type operation. See this thread for an example of how it may be done: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showt...p;p=170077

Here's what it looks like when finished: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showt...p;p=169614
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Philip Melhop




Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is an iron sword described as Naue II in the Museum of London, sadly I can't find an image in their online catalogue.
From memory(was there about 6 weeks ago) it is pretty much identical to the bronze version, grip flanges and all. I will probably be back i London at the end of next week, I will go and check.
Phil
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Fri 13 May, 2011 8:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dustin, yes, I am considering the peening technique. On the other hand, I am confident that I could grind out the hollow between the flanges pretty easily. Everybody has a different idea of how much work is a lot. To me, it would just be a pleasant afternoon working with one of the tools that I am most familiar with and most enjoy using. Compared to setting up the forge, getting fuel, etc, grinding it out would be easier for me. Later this season when I have the forge set up, I will certainly try my hand at forging flanges, a first for me.

Phillip, that would be great if you could. I am especially interested in getting ballpark figures for blade thickness and degree of distal taper.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am now about half way done with my first iron Naue II. I will post pictures soon. Using mild steel, the flanges were very easy to hammer out cold. The part I am having the most difficulty with is work-hardening the edges. I is really hard to get the hammer to hit right near the edge. This first sword will have a simple lenticular section ( almost half of the examples I have found have lenticular sections.) Eventually I hope to work my way up to more complex sections.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Can't wait to see it Scott, good luck.
Éirinn go Brách
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Luke Zechman




Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott, somewhere on one of Matthew Amt's pages he shows a clever device for work hardening the edges. It consists of two pieces of bent brass or bronze round bars. They are bent in the shape of a rectangle missing one of the longest sides. A piece of wood has two hole drilled adjacent to one another, and the ends of ether of these is inserted. The brass pieces are able to swivel in the hole, and the opposite end of the bars come together in a parallel fashion. You place the end of the blade in between them, place the bottom bar against an anvil and strike the top bar. You can even design it so that the blade can only insert into the jig so far, and thus getting the amount of edge hardened that you desire. I hope you understand what I am saying, and I will attempt to locate those images.
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Luke Zechman




Location: Lock Haven Pennsylvania
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a link to the page showing that jig...

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/BAweapons.html
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Philip Melhop




Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jun, 2011 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott, some time ago I promised to look at an iron Naue II at the Museum of London. I never reported back Blush
I must have mis-remembered the sword, in fact I have been informed there are no Naue II swords that have been found in the UK. I am led to believe there is an iron Naue II in the British Museum though.
My apologies
Phil Melhop
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jun, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the tip, Luke. I had some vague ideas about something like that but I had not quite figured out how to go about it. I will have pictures of my first crude experiment in a few days. The edges are hard enough to cut wood, which is good enough for this one. I found some extra thick leaf springs that I am hoping to use for the next few swords. I think I am obsessed with Naue II's enough that I will put all my other projects on hold until I have a few of them. My biggest problem at this point is trying to do the finish grinding through the curves around the shoulders and the concave edges near the base with the belt sander. I see a lot of laborious hand work in my future. I am also trying to figure out exactly how I am going to do mid-ribs and grooves.

Phil, no problem, thank you anyways.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Jun, 2011 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Philip Melhop wrote:
I must have mis-remembered the sword, in fact I have been informed there are no Naue II swords that have been found in the UK. I am led to believe there is an iron Naue II in the British Museum though.


The British Museum also has a sizable collection of near-Eastern items, so maybe it's one of those. But I don't remember ever seeing it...

Anyway, I think that the bronze Naue II's are better as an example anyway, because of the state of preservation.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Sat 25 Jun, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Spencer was kind enough to send me some great pics of iron Naue II's, some of which are amazingly well-preserved. Is there really any appreciable difference in design between iron and bronze Naue II's? Part of the reason I am so interested in iron Naue's is that there is a tremendous amount of variety of design within the group.
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