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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2011 5:44 pm    Post subject: Help needed with translation.         Reply with quote

First of all hello every one, I am new to this site and seeking some of your professional help.

My father found an old sword in Russia few month a go. It looks like a broad sword but don't quote me on that. The sword is in quiet good condition and it has some inscription on it. The lettering on it is very similar to German type of lettering.
I don't have a picture because I live in UK and my dad lives in Russia. I will try and get a picture up.

From what I can see it has three words something like that:-

1. ''Dora'' or ''Dors''
2. ''Shat''
3. ''Duoenteat'' or ''duoentest'' or ''duoentear''

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 12:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So if your father can`t read it its obviously not russian.
how old is the sword perhaps ?
maybe this is some long gone language, varangian/rus or something...
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Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
Joined: 02 Jun 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When you say "German type of lettering", do you mean gothic letters?
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 01 Apr, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Simon G. wrote:
When you say "German type of lettering", do you mean gothic letters?


Yes Simon, Gothic type. We recon it about 800 years old. Dad has few swords in his collection, so he is more clued up on that topic. It just the inscription we cant make out. I will try and get pictures of it.

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Danielle Skjelver




Location: North Dakota
Joined: 18 Feb 2011

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2011 4:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor,

Pictures would be most helpful. I can probably help. Those words could be Germanic, but it is possible that the 'h' only looks like an 'h' but is perhaps something else. It could be Latin. The Dora could be Dona as in a gift.

Pictures really are crucial because the same kinds of writing - Gothic/Miniscule - were used for different languages.

Danielle

"A young Apollo, golden-haired,
Stands dreaming on the verge of strife,
Magnificently unprepared
For the long littleness of life."
-- Frances Cornford
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My dad made a copy of the inscription, as best as he could. I managed to get photos over Skype. Sorry for the image quality. 1st picture contains 1st and 2nd word of the blade inscription, and the 2nd picture has the last word of the inscription. I will try and get picture of the sword over the next few days. Thanks for every ones help so far.


 Attachment: 87.09 KB
1st & 2nd Incription.png


 Attachment: 85.33 KB
3rd Incription.png


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Danielle Skjelver




Location: North Dakota
Joined: 18 Feb 2011

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very helpful, Victor!

I am pretty sure this is Latin. I think that first word is fors as in 'fortune' or 'luck'.

I am not sure what that symbol in front of hat is. It could be an abbreviation symbol, which seems unlikely for a sword. It could be an s as you thought, or it could be an i or a j.

The bottom word looks like duoentest. I don't know what this would mean other than that 'double' is probably part of the word. I have tried breaking it into duo en test and duo entest. I'm not sure. It is probably something obvious.

The font does not look old enough for Old French. How old did you say this sword is?

Danielle

"A young Apollo, golden-haired,
Stands dreaming on the verge of strife,
Magnificently unprepared
For the long littleness of life."
-- Frances Cornford
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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
could it be Latin?
Fors (gate)
..at
Audent (they dare, they're eager for battle)
or
Augent (they increase)
est
Well, it makes no sense like that but I've not learnt much Latin during my school years Blush
P.S.
I've just seen Danielle's message, could it be something with the meaning of "Fortes fortuna juvat " or " audentes fortuna iuvat" : fortune favors the bold
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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've got it:
fors juvat audentes: fortune favors the brave (Claudian) !
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephane Rabier wrote:
I've got it:
fors juvat audentes: fortune favors the brave (Claudian) !


That would be a very corrupted version of the Latin, some letters are even missing.

Could we possibly have an image of the whole sword?
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danielle Skjelver wrote:
Very helpful, Victor!

I am pretty sure this is Latin. I think that first word is fors as in 'fortune' or 'luck'.

I am not sure what that symbol in front of hat is. It could be an abbreviation symbol, which seems unlikely for a sword. It could be an s as you thought, or it could be an i or a j.

The bottom word looks like duoentest. I don't know what this would mean other than that 'double' is probably part of the word. I have tried breaking it into duo en test and duo entest. I'm not sure. It is probably something obvious.

The font does not look old enough for Old French. How old did you say this sword is?

Danielle


Thanks Danielle for your help and every one involved. Regarding swords age my dad thinks its about 800 years old. I will try to get an image of the whole sword may be tomorrow or day after when I get to speak to dad. Thanks Victor

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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 12:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:

That would be a very corrupted version of the Latin, some letters are even missing.

Could we possibly have an image of the whole sword?

Hi,
I'd like to see a photograph of the sword too!
Corrupted, I don't know but I guess the top parts of the letter must be partly erased so it's easy to take a "a" for a "d" or a "d" for a "o".
The last "t" could just be a final cross, an exclamation mark, etc. depending on the period.

The" juvat" or "IVVAT" word written "jhat" puzzles me more. If Victor's father didn't miss one letter, I can't imagine a "w" being taken for a "h" but the wynn letter used in England until the XIVth century looks exactly that way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wynn
I'm far from being a specialist of old English inscriptions, does anyone know if it could have been used in a Latin motto?
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some pics of the sword.


 Attachment: 124.57 KB
Sword whole.png


 Attachment: 117.34 KB
sword front.png


 Attachment: 119.76 KB
sword centre.png


 Attachment: 128.63 KB
Video call snapshot 8.png


 Attachment: 109.51 KB
sword pic.png
This is picture from the postcard that is similar to dads sword

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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2011 3:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your images don't show the pommel. Can you add this?
Is it possible to have a photography where you can see the inscription on the sword? Part of the deciphering was done under the assumption that the inscription has been damaged and thus letters are corrupted. It probably helps to use sunlight and no flash while taking the photography.
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 05 Apr, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:
Your images don't show the pommel. Can you add this?
Is it possible to have a photography where you can see the inscription on the sword? Part of the deciphering was done under the assumption that the inscription has been damaged and thus letters are corrupted. It probably helps to use sunlight and no flash while taking the photography.


I know what you mean regarding the image. I have asked my dad to take a proper image on digital camera. Hopefully I will have that in the next few days.

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Stephane Rabier




Location: Brittany
Joined: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 104

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
any news from your dad's camera Victor?
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Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 2:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

iam very sure that this thing is an DUD
first the inscibtion does not suit from the style the looks of this sword.from the looks its about 1200 but the inscribtions where not made that style at this date.surely an fake or victorian copy
this is an victorian copy made look older with acid or other suff the grey look is typic.das the advantage no patination is on it....very typic for an dud.
iam very sure about this even the pics are not good.
anyway what others say after 25 years in the thing i say not good
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Victor Bobr




Location: Jersey
Joined: 31 Mar 2011

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes sorry just been busy. Below are some pictures that my dad took, close up of the sword.


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 Attachment: 116.98 KB
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Markus A




Location: Germany
Joined: 03 Feb 2010

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

DUD as i say.the lettering has the same look like the one on an SS OR SA DAGGER.never is this the work of the 12.century.
this is as clear as rain.its this romatic lettering which is in the historism oftenm used.
its an fake or an historism item but never this sword is original
no one would spoil an original sword with this lettering.
inscribtions on swords of 1200 look totally different.this is etched.at this early date the leters where cut,and when one cuts this capitals they are never so wide.this can only made with etching.and this was not done around 1200.
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