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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Talhoffer's Sword         Reply with quote

Moving on from Memling to Talhoffer....The image below is a portrait of Talhoffer from the 1467 printing. In this image he holds a single-hand sword (possibly hand/half) like those shown in that edition's section on equestrian combat. I have some bits that I think could work well for this but I want to get your opinions on the specs.

It looks to me like this is a narrow Type XVIII blade with a Type T5 pommel and cross of Style 2. Single hand or short-ish bastard sword? Comparison of his right hand to the grip length suggests that this is a bastard sword, but I haven't examined the biometrics for the blade length.

It's a very practical and attractive sword. I have a faceted T5 and Style 2 cross that appear to work perfectly with a Hanwei-Tinker sharp bastard sword blade, but I want to make sure it's an historically plausible match. Talhoffer's seems like a good fit.

Thoughts?



 Attachment: 119.48 KB
Hans_Talhoffer.jpg


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Type T pommel should be quite small or it would be too heavy for a relatively light bastard blade I think... If the balance would be ok it would certainly be an attractive sword.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is my first design, based more on the swords in the equestrian section, some of which appear to be single-hand. The sword shown with Talhoffer himself seems to be a bit larger, based only on biometric observations. Based on my own proportions, that blade would be somewhere around 32-34". That would put the sword at about 41-43" overall. Reasonable?


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Marc Bloom




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, the size and fittings are fine. That sword size would be perfect for the unarmored fights. The issue is the balance and ergonomics. Does the guard fit well? Is the guard to long for you to use comfortably? Does this pommel put the balance where you want it?

Let us know how it works out.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marc Bloom wrote:
Sean, the size and fittings are fine. That sword size would be perfect for the unarmored fights. The issue is the balance and ergonomics. Does the guard fit well? Is the guard to long for you to use comfortably? Does this pommel put the balance where you want it?

Let us know how it works out.


My best estimate is that the POB would be 3-4 inches below the cross but it's hard to make an accurate judgment about balance unless I expect to use the whole tang, which is doubtful. To get the Talhoffer proportions I'd probably shorten the very thick tang by a couple of inches for an overall length of maybe 40.5. The H-T blade is about 42.5. overall and 33" blade-only. I think the pommel would need to lose about 25' off the foot to correspond more closely with Talhoffer's. I'm going to have to either remove the facets or re-grind them because they're noticeably asymmetrical. Might just go ahead and take 'em off to help reduce the size and weight (the crowd-source judgment from a similar earlier idea was that the pommel looked too large).

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Your sword model looks great!
However, I note a couple of things that differ from the illustration. The sword Talhoffer holds looks like a hollow diamond blade and the pommel looks pear shaped round without facets. I can't really see what your blade geometry is in the photo as it's too bright to make out, but if it's modeled off a Hanwei Tinker, aren't these all made with a central fuller? Albion might sell hollow diamond blades though now that they take orders for bare blades.

I also have a question about the stated POB. Do you mean 3-4 inches below the crossguard, as in on to the gavel, or 3-4 inches from the crossguard on to the blade?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All but one of the H-T blades are fullered. The one I have is the unfullered diamond section Type XVIII. It might qualify as XVIIId. Very nice blade, and seems to be similar to the single-hand blades in this edition of Talhoffer. Any project inspired by them must rely on some educated guesswork. The sword shown with Talhoffer could be hollow ground or flat-sided, but it resembles many of the Dordogne blades, which are not hollow ground.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Thu 10 Mar, 2011 3:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, hadn't seen those. Good to know for future projects.

Yes, diamond regardless if hollow or not seems right for this.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm still pondering this project. I have what I think is a more appropriate blade. It's from a Windlass Munich sword, inspired by the Stantler field swords of ca. 1600. These blades are, in essence, medieval Type XV blades with a ricasso (though the Windlass misses that mark). I now think that more closely resembles Talhoffer's equestrian swords and improves the proportions of this project. I'll still have to taper the lower .25 of the blade to create a more acute point.

This shows the bits together as they currently fit and without regard to proportion. The pommel will have to come down about 1" and I'll be taking an equivalent amount of blade to accommodate that change (or I might shorten the pommel slightly). I'll remove the pommel facets and round the ends of the cross. The grip will be very simple, tapered and with a chappe. I'll make a simple scabbard and suspension to match Talhoffer's. Should be a good sword for use with a buckler.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, that second blade looks like a much better match. How stiff is it? I find the HT blades to be super whippy. I have always loved the Talhoffer single-handers and similar swords. Sean, I must say, you have impeccable taste in swords.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Yes, that second blade looks like a much better match. How stiff is it? I find the HT blades to be super whippy. I have always loved the Talhoffer single-handers and similar swords. Sean, I must say, you have impeccable taste in swords.


Thanks! This Windlass blade is stiff. Not as stiff/thick as the A&A Town Guard blade, but plenty stiff for effective thrusting. The H-T bastard blade I originally thought I might use is VERY stiff. No worries there. The H-T fullered longsword blade is a bit more flexible and overall gives the impression of being a lighter and less robust blade. That might just be an illusion, though. I like both blades very much. You just have to match them to the right hilt.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting. I might reconsider getting an HT bastard sword blade. I got an HT longsword bade a while back and was very disappointed by its extreme whippiness. Maybe I got a lemon. Or maybe you and I have very different ideas about how stiff is stiff. I like 'em really stiff. Of course, if I find a blade to be too whippy, I have found that shortening the blade by as little as 5cm can work wonders.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Fri 03 Jun, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Talhoffer's Sword         Reply with quote

Sean's Talhoffer sword looks impressive, I must say.
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

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Gary B. Ledford




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Jun, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
I got an HT longsword bade a while back and was very disappointed by its extreme whippiness. Maybe I got a lemon. Or maybe you and I have very different ideas about how stiff is stiff.


When we get folks into our sword shop who talk about some blades being too whippy, if it is available that day, we show them my friends custom Atrim/ CFletcher (not Valiant), type XIIa with the glamdring hilt. Coming in at just over 2.5 lbs, with a 35 or so inch blade, it is an extremely light yet nicely stiff longsword. It cuts bottles, mats, and occasionally the rubber tread on the top of the tire that we set bottles on like a lightsabre. However, when you hold it out horizontal, the blade does sag at least an inch or so. That is just the nature of this type of blade- the sword is not "whippy" whatsoever (working in the biz, we hate that word).

Hanwei Tinker longswords present a similar feel and flexibility. if your blade sags more than an inch or so, it might well have an improper heat treat.

Beware the Jabberwock my son,
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It isn't sag I worry about, that is entirely apropriate for certain types of blades. (My heavily modified HT Great Sword sags alot but is a great cutter.) It is lack of sufficient stiffness in a blade that is obviously geared toward thrusting. I love some of the other HT blades I have gotten, but the HT longsword blade was neither a cutter nor a thruster, neither fish nor fowl. Compared to my Albion type XVI, it was WAY less stiff, and the Albion is really not that stiff for thrusting though it cuts with great authority. I think part of the problem with mine was a fuller that was cut way too deep at the distal end, creating a distinct weak spot near the middle of the blade. The heat-treat was excellent and after removing the last 14" or so it made a wicked short-sword blade.
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Gary B. Ledford




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PostPosted: Sun 12 Jun, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ahh, yes Hanwei is actually more consistant with their heat treatment than with their grinds. Iv e seen the same sword handle different from blade to blade due to minor differences in grind.
Beware the Jabberwock my son,
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
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Eric W. Norenberg





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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi All,
Scott, would you be willing to post either of your modded H/T projects in a new thread? I for one love to see the "home brew" stuff. Always more interesting than "off-the-shelf"...

For what it is worth (at the risk of further derailing Sean's thread here), which Albion XVI do you have? There is a fair difference (as I understand them) between the Crecy and the Brescia, for example, both arguably XVIa 's. I have the H/T Longsword too, and I have no complaints regarding stiffness/thrust-ability - for that particular sword's intended use (meaning, what Tinker designed the thing to do). I have no idea how it compares to the Crecy or any of Albion's single hand XVI 's, 'tho.

Excelsior!

P.S.: Sean, project looks good, looking forward to more. What became of the hilt from the Munich?
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Charles Richmond




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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun, 2011 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:

Thanks! This Windlass blade is stiff. Not as stiff/thick as the A&A Town Guard blade, but plenty stiff for effective thrusting. The H-T bastard blade I originally thought I might use is VERY stiff. No worries there. The H-T fullered longsword blade is a bit more flexible and overall gives the impression of being a lighter and less robust blade. That might just be an illusion, though. I like both blades very much. You just have to match them to the right hilt.


Sean,

Purely as information, Michael Pearce himself in a discussion on the two different H/T Bastard models, said that the fullered model is designed to be the better cutter versus the unfullered model. His opinion is that the fullered model is also designed to be more blade heavy than the unfullered version, but this may vary due to manufacturing variances.

I realize that this has absolutely no bearing on your project, but thought that it was still be an interesting info bit for all to be aware of.

As with all of your projects, I highly anticipate your progress and insights. Thank you for allowing us to observe.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Charles Richmond wrote:


Sean,

Purely as information, Michael Pearce himself in a discussion on the two different H/T Bastard models, said that the fullered model is designed to be the better cutter versus the unfullered model. His opinion is that the fullered model is also designed to be more blade heavy than the unfullered version, but this may vary due to manufacturing variances.

I realize that this has absolutely no bearing on your project, but thought that it was still be an interesting info bit for all to be aware of.

As with all of your projects, I highly anticipate your progress and insights. Thank you for allowing us to observe.


Thanks, Charles! That's good to know because I've often wondered about the difference between the two bastard sword blades. Sounds like I should stick with the un-fullered bastard and the fullered longsword. I just wish H-T would produce a longer type XVIII. Seems strange that they don't already because it has many more applications than their fullered longsword, which is confined to a much smaller historical period.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, I hope you don't mind another off-topic post. Eric, my Albion is a "type XVI" bare blade. Really, it is more of a XVIa and seems very similar to the Crecy except for a shorter fuller. I will post my blades in a seperate thread when I get a chance. I am mostly finished, I am just stuck on the pommels.
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