Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Issues with Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival.us Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Issues with Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival.us         Reply with quote

Dear All,

This is a subject that has come up before, but which I have refrained from commenting on for various reasons. I find I can no longer remain silent on the matter, as you will find in this thread on the Armour Archive:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=129990

I'm sorry the matter has come to this, but safeguarding others in the community is a high priority for me. I'll be happy to answer questions, provided they do not inhibit any follow-on legal action on my part.

Best regards,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I cannot give an opinion to who is right or wrong in this matter, for this is the first I have heard of these accusations. This all comes as a great suprise to me.

I am a member of the Schola Saint George I have known, studied from, bought from, spoken, and interacted with Brian Price on many occassions and have nothing but the highest respect for him. He has never slighted myself, my peers, nor any of my students since 2008. He has never done wrong by me, nor led me to believe that he would do so. I consider the man to be a friend.

However, I am also on the side of honesty, character, honor, and integrity. If these slights against yourself and others are sincere, I feel that they must be answered for - honor dictates it.

This is not my battle, but this I can do: I will contact him personally and let him know of these allegations. He has a right to defend himself in the forums, just as others have a right to accuse him. I pray that there can be a quick and honest solution for all parties at hand.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Sarge,

Please read the linked thread in its entirety. You'll find two things:

1. Mr. Price is well aware of these accusations, as he has himself posted in the thread.

2. Mr. Price acknowledges having paid no royalties since 2007, thereby admitting he in violation of contract.

I'm sorry that as an SSG student this all puts you in an unenviable, and unearned, bad position. I regret that.

Yours,

Christian Tobler

PS. I too once considered Mr. Price a friend. I do not undertake these actions lightly.

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All,

I've been following this thread closely on the AA since it started. I know there have been discussions on this site about airing dirty laundry etc... but in this case I encourage all to read that thread fully and take it to heart. As some of you know, from August through December of last year I was dealing with Mr. Price on some armor (namely his Bargello style hourglass gauntlets) that were ready to ship in 'one week.' One week turned into 4 months rather quickly, to the point that I was literally on the cusp on filing a credit card dispute with USAA for goods not delivered.

Anyway, it appears that this business practice was nothing new, and a thread like that would have saved me a significant amount of both money and headache in dealing with his company from the get go. My biggest headache was a shear lack of communication and constant unmet promises to deliver a product 'within a week.' I was often treated with disrespect on the phone when I would call to inquire about my order (as phone was the only way to talk to anyone there, email was just ignored after the first 2 weeks). I would be rushed off the phone with a clear attitude of 'leave me alone, why is this person calling.' I would call to inquire once per month after watching the latest unmet delivery date pass in silence, which I find to be more than reasonable.

I was the lucky one, if you read the AA thread you'll see some of his armor has had catastrophic failure in the field, and luckily no one was hurt, but you can see from the images on the AA that someone could have been seriously injured using his improperly heat treated spring steel gauntlets. As for his business practices, absolutely reprehensible. I will let those of you interested read all that in the AA forums.

There comes a point where being nice and courteous must give way to telling the truth so that others may learn from what we dealt with and avoid it like the plague. In my case, it was but one sour business transaction, in the case of others, it's quite staggering what has taken place...

My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."


Last edited by Ian S LaSpina on Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm, that would also soundly explain what happened to Armour Research Society and why I never recieved it's journal...
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Ian,

I think I owe you an apology then.

I've known about all of this (although there have been still more recent revelations) for some time. I haven't acted though precisely because of the kinds of counter-accusations that Mr. Price has levelled in the thread: that I'm just doing this because I'm a competitor, etc.

The difference now, versus 2007, is the sheer preponderance of evidence. It's not just me, nor just me and the (former) CB author pool, it's dozens of incidents involving a diverse group of people from the WMA, arms & armour, SCA, reenactor, and history buff crowds. This is a demonstrable pattern now. Again, as my friend and colleague Greg Mele has it, "can all these people be lying?"

Nevertheless, had I spoken up earlier, perhaps I might have saved some folks some trouble. And for not having done so, I offer you my unconditional apology.

Yours,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am continuing to read all the linked information. Since I currently serving with the military in the Middle East, my internet is painfully slow. It will take a bit or time to digest. I know this is really none of my affair, and I certinally do no mean to meddle, but I would do the same for any person I considered a friend. I did, per my word, send Brian an email and linked him back here. Perhaps it will solicit a response and there can be an honorable resolution for all parties involved. I wish the best of luck to both of you in finding the solution, if one is to be found.
J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
View user's profile Send private message
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian,

No apology is required. I hope I did not imply that you should have spoken up earlier and I apologize to you if that's how it came off. I understand the uncomfortable position you have been in, and I also understand not wanting things to explode like they seem to have done in the past few days.

I just think that now, since all of this has come to light in a public forum, we as both the consumers and professionals in this industry we're all so passionate about shouldn't hide from what's happening, but rather embrace it so as to prevent things like this from tainting said industry. It's painful, but it's one of the only ways to prevent occurrences like this from happening again. I applaud you for speaking out on this issue. You have my thanks.

-Ian

My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, it's ok Ian - I didn't read anything accusatory in your tone.

Indeed, it is good this is all coming out now. It's been an unspoken truth among a lot of merchants for some years now, but I don't think anyone knew just how deep the rabbit hole went until it all just started pouring out.

Whether one is a reenactor, a collector, a martial artist, or whatever, we all share a bond: we're interested in the honorable study of arms. That this particular business, one that include the word Chivalry in its name, has turned out to be so antithetical to that code is truly abominable.

Thanks for your support in this matter - it's truly appreciated.

Yours,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Simon G.




Location: Lyons, France
Joined: 02 Jun 2008

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow... Now I feel bad for having ordered some books CB carries (though I've bought others through dealers such as Abebooks or Amazon), including Mr Price's own book... Can't remember which I ordered from whom, but the bottom line remains that to think the authors of such good books as Arte Gladiatoria, Fighting with the German Longsword, The Art of Dueling (all of which I own and enjoy very much) have been ripped off is sad indeed. What's good, however, is to see that it didn't discourage Mr Tobler or Tom Leoni or Greg Mele and that there are now new publications from them through other editors. For the dedication it must take to write and publish anew after having been ripped off, congrats and thanks.

I had considered ordering In the Service of the Duke from CB, but I suppose I'll have to find a second-hand copy now (anyone? Razz ). Or we can hope it will be re-printed.

Finally, I can sympathise in part with the motives attributed to Mr. Price over at the AA, wanting a good lifestyle for your wife and kids... Sometimes I suppose one must be a bit, ah, ruthless... But leaving such a consistent trail of people being ripped off is just too much (and might have consequences I suppose). Seems like there's a bit of truth yet in the oft-quoted 76th stanza of the Hávamál :

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies
Of one who has done well


(PS - I'm not so sure chivalry was that, ah, chivalric historically. Surely many knights were far removed to the chivalric ideal, especially since that ideal's heyday was a long time after the heyday of chivalry itself. But just as surely it carried at least one imperative, a common one, maintaining a good image in your peers' eyes whatever your deeds were...)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.E.,

JE Sarge wrote:
I cannot give an opinion to who is right or wrong in this matter, for this is the first I have heard of these accusations. This all comes as a great suprise to me.

I am a member of the Schola Saint George I have known, studied from, bought from, spoken, and interacted with Brian Price on many occassions and have nothing but the highest respect for him. He has never slighted myself, my peers, nor any of my students since 2008. He has never done wrong by me, nor led me to believe that he would do so. I consider the man to be a friend.


Firstly, thank you for your service. Stay safe - you are applying honor and integrity *in the field* as the founders of the arts we studied meant intended.

I will say this to you: it was just brought to my attention today, by someone I don't even know but who has been reading the Archive thread and following up with their own research, that the Schola Saint George had its legal status revoked in 2009 for failure to pay taxes. Note, not its tax-exempt, educational status; its legal status, Ie: in the eyes of the federal government and the State of Texas, there *is no* Schola Saint George. Consider what that means: to whom are you paying dues, and who is covering the SSG's insurance, since the corporation is dissolved?

Maybe Brian has forwarded this to his chapter heads, maybe you are all aware of it. But the website currently reads:

Quote:
he Schola Saint George is a non-profit school of "chivalric" martial arts dedicated to promoting study of historical fighting systems through research, training, and competition.


and:

Quote:
The SSG is incorporated in the State of Texas and has applied for our 401(c)-3 non-profit status. We are guided by a Board of Directors drawn from our membership, taking our mission as creating an educational community dedicated to the study of the medieval fighting treatises and the historical context in which they were used, as well as forging our discoveries into a new martial art that evokes the highest standards of martial technique and character development.


I want to make something very, very clear. I know Dr. Robert Holland and Colin Hatcher personally. I respect these men, trust these men and have never had the slightest reason to believe the slightest ill of them. I have also had many SSG students in seminars, including Frank Petrino, the NJ study-group leader, and found them all to be respectful and hard-working. I bear no ill-will to any of these people, or the SSG, and I hope that whatever happened with the legal status gets resolved. But this happened in 2009; it is 2011 and there are no records stating any reinstatement, and if I were SSG students I would want some answers from Mr Price; especially concerning the dangers of the activity and the litigiousness of our society.

J.E., again, thank you both for your service and for your measured willingness to both defend your teacher, but to hear us out. It speaks well of yourself and your belief in honor and justice.

Best wishes,

Gregory

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

Posts: 466

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm... If I remember correctly, I tried to get Fighting With The German Longsword through these guys and had some trouble which eventually led to me getting a second hand copy through Amazon. I wonder if it is at all related to the above issues.

I think I started ordering it and suddenly as I was checking out it popped up saying it was all out of stock. Seemed like nothing more than an annoyance at the time. ("Why didn't it say so before I started this mess?") Now I wish I'd paid more attention so I could relate details I'm 100% certain of.

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
View user's profile Send private message
Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 233

PostPosted: Tue 22 Feb, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The SSG is incorporated in the State of Texas and has applied for our 401(c)-3 non-profit status. We are guided by a Board of Directors drawn from our membership, taking our mission as creating an educational community dedicated to the study of the medieval fighting treatises and the historical context in which they were used, as well as forging our discoveries into a new martial art that evokes the highest standards of martial technique and character development.


I was just on TX Comptroller's website checking something else out for my company, and confirmed the status on SSG. Also kind of interesting, I think SSG site meant to say "501(c)3". So, attention to detail not a strong suit...

Yes, I AM a tax guy. And I have replica medieval weaponry. Wanna make something of it?!? Razz Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robert C Holland




Location: Pleasanton, CA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed 23 Feb, 2011 9:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For personal reasons, Brian Price has stepped down as President of the
Schola Saint George and left the Schola Board of Directors.

In response, the Board of Directors has called an emergency meeting
and will issue a statement within 48 hours. We ask for your
forbearance during that time.

In addition, we are asking all SSG members to suspend official Schola
Saint George practices, training and activities until the Board of
Directors has resolved any possible issues with our insurance.

Robert Holland
Schola Saint George Founder, Provost & Vice President
View user's profile Send private message
Bryan Johnson




Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 41

PostPosted: Sun 27 Feb, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ANNOUNCEMENT BY COLIN GABRIEL HATCHER, NEWLY ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE SCHOLA SAINT GEORGE

To all interested persons:

For personal reasons the founder and President of the Schola Saint George, Brian Price, has tendered his resignation to the Schola Saint George Board of Directors. The resignation follows posts in public internet forums in which questionable business practices have been alleged against Brian. As a result of these allegations, and because of the need to address these issues privately, Brian has elected to depart from the Schola Saint George, lest the Schola’s members be adversely affected by association with the personal and business disputes Brian now finds himself involved in.

Following Brian’s resignation, the Board of Directors held an emergency meeting to discuss his departure and to address two urgent matters that had also come to the Board’s attention through postings on the internet. The first concerned a loss of corporate status in the state of Texas where the organization is registered. The other concerned whether members’ personal injury and liability insurance was adversely affected by the loss of corporate status in Texas. The Board extends its thanks to those who posted this information online and thus alerted the Board to these issues.

On the issue of Brian’s resignation, the Board accepted the resignation and thanks Brian deeply for his foundational work in creating the Schola Saint George and for all of the time, resources and work he has put into the organization over the past 10 years. The Board will not forget his contribution. The Board of Directors, which is the sole official voice for the Schola Saint George, has no comment on the merits of the publicly aired business disputes Brian now finds himself involved in, and hopes that all parties involved are able to resolve these disputes as expeditiously as possible and to mutual satisfaction.

At the emergency meeting the Board accepted nominations for a new President to serve the Schola Saint George. Elected to the office of President was Colin Hatcher, Esq., who has been with the Schola Saint George since 2001 and is an instructor for the organization, specializing in the grappling and dagger curricula. Mr. Hatcher is also a civil trial attorney in the San Francisco Bay Area. Also elected to the Board at the emergency meeting was Charles Deily, SSG Instructor for the Boston group.

The Schola Saint George Board of Directors now consists of the following 5 persons:
President: Colin Hatcher, Esq.
Vice-President: Robert C. Holland, Ph.D
Secretary and COO: Lt. Col. Bryan Johnson
Treasurer: Jason Willis, Leader of the Little Rock SSG Study Group
Board Member: Charles Deily, Instructor for the Boston SSG group

The Schola Saint George was granted its 501(c)(3) non-profit status as of September 2010. While it was originally "Brian and Robert's" group, once it became a non-profit organization it was and is no longer the “property” of any one person. Officers of this non-profit, as with any non-profit organization, are appointed to serve its mission and are charged with a fiduciary duty to protect it and advance its interests over their own. At the emergency meeting the Board of Directors noted that Brian fulfilled his fiduciary duty to the non-profit by resigning from the Board of Directors in the light of matters that could potentially cause grave harm to the organization.

The Schola Saint George through its Board of Directors has resolved to keep the Schola distant and distinct from any disputes between third parties and Brian Price and will not enter into any discussions on those matters. For the Schola to involve itself in the business disputes of third parties would violate our mission statement and breach our legal duty to the organization. On the other hand, we cannot control, nor would we seek to control, personal comments and opinions made by our members in public forums. Please be aware therefore that while any Schola member is free to comment, should any Schola Saint George member make public comments on discussion boards about any of these issues, they speak for themselves alone and do not speak for the Schola Saint George.

At its emergency meeting the Board addressed the issue of the temporary suspension of the organization’s corporate status in the State of Texas. A resolution was passed to immediately seek legal advice on this matter and to resolve this as quickly as possible. This resolution has already been implemented and is ongoing and we anticipate the resurrection of our Texas corporate status in about 90 days.

An issue was also brought to the Board’s attention by a post on the internet raising the question of whether the Schola’s personal injury/liability insurance coverage had been adversely affected by the issue with the organization’s temporary loss of corporate status in Texas. The Board resolved to investigate this issue immediately, and in an abundance of caution issued a moratorium on all official training under the name Schola Saint George.

The Schola Saint George’s current insurance policy, like many other martial arts organizations, was obtained through the reputable Francis L. Dean & Associates. Mr. Hatcher personally discussed this matter with a representative of Francis L. Dean & Associates on February 25, 2011 and was assured in writing that the Schola’s insurance is in place and remains unaffected by any issues of corporate status in Texas. In reliance on the representations made to Mr. Hatcher by Francis L. Dean & Associates, all Schola members are hereby informed that the insurance is secure and training by all covered persons may resume.

The Schola Saint George is a non-profit school of chivalric martial arts dedicated to promoting study of historical fighting systems through research, training, and competition, and is further committed to the exploration and application of chivalry in the modern era. The Board of Directors with its new President is committed to continuing that mission into the future.

We invite all current Schola Saint George members at this time of change to note that our Mission has not changed, to re-dedicate themselves to the Schola’s Mission, and to continue sharing this highly enjoyable journey with us. In addition we extend our fraternal greetings to all of our like-minded colleagues in other Western Martial Arts schools worldwide, and extend particular thanks to those organizations that have reached out to us at this time.

Presidents come and go. The Mission remains.

Sincerely
Colin Hatcher, Esq.
President
Schola Saint George
colinhatcher@gmail.com

Bryan Johnson
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Pleasant




Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Joined: 24 Aug 2003

Posts: 333

PostPosted: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wishing the best to Schola Saint George. May their best days be ahead of them.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW
View user's profile Send private message
Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Pleasant wrote:
Wishing the best to Schola Saint George. May their best days be ahead of them.

Ran Pleasant
ARMA DFW


Have to second that! Such things are never easy, and it is good to see Schola of St. George to come out of it in high spirits.
View user's profile Send private message
Greg Mele
Industry Professional



Location: Chicago, IL USA
Joined: 20 Mar 2006

Posts: 356

PostPosted: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree wholeheartedly with Randall - wishing only the best to the SSG as they move forward.

(See Randall, there is now *proof* for all to see that you and I have agreed on something. Wink )

Greg Mele
Chicago Swordplay Guild
www.chicagoswordplayguild.com

www.freelanceacademypress.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 688

PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There have been further developments in this ongoing story. Please revisit the link above for updates if you're following this.

Yours,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,134

PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christian Henry Tobler wrote:
There have been further developments in this ongoing story. Please revisit the link above for updates if you're following this.

Yours,

Christian


Christian,
Would it be possible to summarize salient points so people don't have to wade through 17 pages (and counting) of replies? I went and read it but many people may not make that effort, despite the newsworthiness of the info.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Issues with Chivalry Bookshelf / Revival.us
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum