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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
Joined: 06 Feb 2011

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PostPosted: Mon 07 Feb, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Tudor Period Shields         Reply with quote

Hello, I am looking for info on Petty-captains of Foot during the Tudor period. More precisely about them carrying shields. I have found great images of their clothing and arms and armor. But more than one author has mentioned in the books that they are shown in several paintings as carrying either round or oval shields.

Doing a search for that time period only returns the gun shields. I can not see a gun shield being used in actual combat.

So my question is has anyone seen this mysterious artwork that the authors reference placing a shield in the hands of officers of foot during the Tudor period?
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David Evans




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PostPosted: Mon 07 Feb, 2011 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try looking under Target, targe or rondache. Made either of steel or wood with a leather covering


Like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/1959254785/
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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
Joined: 06 Feb 2011

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon 07 Feb, 2011 10:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the image. That at least gives me an idea of what to look for. But, I am still trying to find the artwork that the authors refer to but do not actually name.

All the images of the Tudor period Petty-Captain of Foot that I can find still do not show what kind of targe/shield that they would have actually carried.

Where is a good place to research historical paintings/sketches?
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David Evans




Location: Rotherham, West Riding
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 12:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To be honest, there is virtually no Tudor paintings of much use

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Joris_...c_1569.png


Has a serving man at centre left with a targe on his back,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Captain_Tho...raerts.jpg

shows an English officer in Irish dress with a targe on his back

But that's the earlist I've found...
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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
Joined: 06 Feb 2011

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

See that is what I thought.
I have been reading a lot about that period and have repeatably seen historians claim that shields were mostly gone from actual combat and those paintings do not contradict that.

The first appears to be some sort of festival, possible parade settings?, and the second is a single man portrait. This to me is still not enough evidence to assume that a Petty-Captain would have had one in combat. So why would an author imply that this was the case with little or no support?

This brings up another thing. I have had the hardest time in researching arms and armor lately. I know to hit the museum collections that I can view online. Then there are publications, but I can not afford to buy the books I would like and my local library is rural and not sufficient. How did you happen across those images? What search terms did you use and which search engine?

Bottom line I guess, how does one go about doing reliable research online without having to wonder the digital waste lands hoping to come across a few images/writings that would help establishing a historic basis?

One reason I joined here was to help me get my kit as historically accurate as possible.
Thanks D.E. for your help.
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M Davis




Location: San Antonio, Tx.
Joined: 09 Nov 2010

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Matkin wrote:
...

This brings up another thing. I have had the hardest time in researching arms and armor lately. I know to hit the museum collections that I can view online. Then there are publications, but I can not afford to buy the books I would like and my local library is rural and not sufficient. How did you happen across those images? What search terms did you use and which search engine?

Bottom line I guess, how does one go about doing reliable research online without having to wonder the digital waste lands hoping to come across a few images/writings that would help establishing a historic basis?

One reason I joined here was to help me get my kit as historically accurate as possible.
Thanks D.E. for your help.


There are other members here who are far more experienced than I and they can hopefully help you with direct sourcing, but here is an article that will help your online research:
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/seo/how-to-become-a...art-1/1881

It's not flashy, sexy, or really even very fun, but if you work through the article, your searches will become much more efficient and productive.

"Although walking is authorized, it is strongly discouraged."
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Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Matkin wrote:
See that is what I thought.
I have been reading a lot about that period and have repeatably seen historians claim that shields were mostly gone from actual combat and those paintings do not contradict that.

The first appears to be some sort of festival, possible parade settings?, and the second is a single man portrait. This to me is still not enough evidence to assume that a Petty-Captain would have had one in combat. So why would an author imply that this was the case with little or no support?



I think they might have been used in combat more than you think. I'm not sure if you are aware of targeteers, but they would carry targe's (shields) into combat, both shot proof and regular. There definitely would not be as many of them as shot or pike, but they would be used to assault breeches during sieges and to skirmish with the enemy alongside calivermen. They also apparently were extremely effective against pike formations aswell. I believe they might have also been used by demi lancers.

"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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Dan Rosen




Location: Providence
Joined: 21 Jan 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello!

I don't have too much time at the moment but I've collected a few images of shields and targets. Though they are not necessarily images of Petty Captains, they can still inform us as to what the shields looked liked and how they were carried.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tudorsources/4565781011/ English, 1587 From the Funeral Procession of Sir Philip Sidney.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tudorsources/4565782283/ Dutch, 1587 Targeteer by Hendrick Goltzius or Jacquesde Gheyn.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/4565784819_c31e09403c_z.jpg Spanish soldiers, date unknown. Probably very late 16th century.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/4566404454_5abb9569e2_b.jpg Engraiving of French Soldiers in the New World by Theodore de Bry. Late 16th century.
http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-c-378.z Company of Captain Dirck Jacobsz Rosecrans (1588) by Cornelis Ketel
http://www.settemuse.it/pittori_opere_B/baroc...rovere.jpg An Italian Nobleman.


I hope this helps a little.

-Dan

-Dan Rosen

"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gunshields from the Mary Rose. Henry VIII personally watched these sink to the bottom of the Solent July 19, 1545. Now THAT is provenance.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FWIW, shields the size of these (as well as many other sizes and shapes) appear in German/Austrian artwork well into the Tudor period. The typical form seems to be round and deep, made of wood but reinforced with iron straps and nails.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Dan Rosen




Location: Providence
Joined: 21 Jan 2010

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had assumed that you were going for later 16th century, but now that I know you're aiming for Henry VIII's through Mary's reign, this image might help quite a bit- An actual Petty Captain from around1540



There's more information in this thread

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=partizan

-Dan Rosen

"One day there will be no more frontier, and men like you will go too."
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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
Joined: 06 Feb 2011

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had the image of the Petty-Captain without the shield in b/w.

I was discussing the arms with our mail maker and was trying to figure out if there were only three strips of chain or more. I have seen one artist interpretation with only three and the image posted above seems to have at least four.

I am of the opinion that three was more likely, because why would put one to the inside of the arm if you are trying to protect against slashing attacks.
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Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb, 2011 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Matkin wrote:
I was discussing the arms with our mail maker and was trying to figure out if there were only three strips of chain or more. I have seen one artist interpretation with only three and the image posted above seems to have at least four.

I am of the opinion that three was more likely, because why would put one to the inside of the arm if you are trying to protect against slashing attacks.


Since it appears he also has maile under his doublet (seen through the slashes), he might just be wearing a hauberk or similar garment underneath a slashed doublet.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Happy

"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Feb, 2011 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This image is of a museum replica of the garb I am working on.

http://www.winchester.gov.uk/Image/News/tudor%20soldier1.JPG

I am assuming that the yellowish sleeves are leather. That would imply a leather jerkin maybe?

So the outfit would be - a long sleeve standard period shirt, then a long sleeve soft leather padded jerkin/arming jacket with high collar, then a shirt sleeve mail shirt(though I doubt the museum staffer is wearing one), all covered by the slashed over coat

I can not find a linkable image of the Petty-Captain of Foot from Osprey's Henry VIII' s Army, but it seems to show the same leather jacket along with rows of chain going down the sleeves. That's where I was referring to the three strips versus more.

Back to the shields though. The wooden ones appear to be double layered planks held together with nails and ?possibly an outer ring of metal? Would anyone have any idea on the depth compared to diameter? From rough calculation from the image on screen I would think that the depth is somewhere between 1/5 to a 1/4 of the total diameter.
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Drew M




Location: England
Joined: 16 Feb 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 16 Feb, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, this is my first ever post here. I have viewed the site before simply out of a long standing interest in weapons and armour, but I was compelled to join today when I saw this topic.

I apologise in that I have a slightly off-topic request, in that I am not interested so much in what a petty captain wore or which shield he used, but rather in what exactly a petty captain was? I am writing an essay for an assignment on military ordinances and whilst reading on Henry VIII, I came across this term. As far as I'm aware they are not really mentioned in the medieval period, but appear in the Tudor period? Could anyone describe what exactly the difference between a captain and petty captain was? Was it in relation to the number of men he led? His pay grade? His status or equipment? I literally have no idea, so any advice anyone could offer, or any suggested books would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
Best, Drew.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
FWIW, shields the size of these (as well as many other sizes and shapes) appear in German/Austrian artwork well into the Tudor period. The typical form seems to be round and deep, made of wood but reinforced with iron straps and nails.


Hi Sean, if possible could you please post some images of these shields from German/Austrian artwork, or would you happen to know where I might be able so see them online? Thanks in advance.

Éirinn go Brách
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll be on the lookout. There's one in particular I'm thinking of that clearly shows the reinforcing. The ones below are not like that but they're the same period--1500-1520. Some of these appear to be either steel or metal-over-wood. One may be meant to represent an Eastern type.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From The Image of Irelande 1581 http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...eland.html

English horseman putting Irish to flight: Shows English using the shield as kind of a breast plate and some detains of Irish shield.
http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/about/bgallery/Galler...61_jpg.htm
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Sean those pictures are great, if you find the one in particular that clearly shows the wood target reinforced with iron, I'd very much like to see it.
Éirinn go Brách
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James Matkin




Location: Tupelo, MS
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PostPosted: Sat 25 Jun, 2011 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the further research, I was afraid that the off topic post may have killed my thread.

Anyhow, as far as the shield is concerned I think that I found a fairly reasonable attempt to recreate.

http://bloodandsawdust.com/Blood_and_Sawdust/...bosse.html

It does seem to be a bit shallow and he used rather thin steel for an actual period piece. But all in all a fairly well done attempt.

Also, any idea what kind of helm the petty-captain is actually wearing? I was thinking a burgonet, but it appears that the artist thought the front brim was a visor from the apparent notches on it.
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