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Joe Pittman




Location: Memphis, Tenn.
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Jan, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Schiavona artwork         Reply with quote

Any body have reference pics of the soldiers using schiavona, were they sword and buckler men?
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 7:07 pm    Post subject: Help         Reply with quote

Still cannot find any images of Schiavona in use or on a man at arms. Help if You Can
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Schiavona artwork         Reply with quote

Joe Pittman wrote:
Any body have reference pics of the soldiers using schiavona, were they sword and buckler men?


Probably not? The strongest association between the schiavona and any troop type was with the Schiavoni--the Slavonic mercenaries from the Balkans--and these appear to have been largely light cavalry (stradiots?) and light infantry. Of course, sword-and-target men (since these appear to be what you meant by the popular but unfortunately rather erroneous term "sword-and-buckler men") were also light infantry, but they didn't seem to have been particularly associated with any type of sword; some of them could conceivably have carried the schiavona, but certainly not all.
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





Joined: 25 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello friends,

I'm presently finishing up a schiavona-armed Stradiot kit of the 16th century; you're welcome to consult my notes on it here:

http://www.ForensicFashion.com/1590StradiotCavalry.html

However, I haven't yet found an illustration from this period showing how a schiavona was carried. The only historical illustration I've seen comes from the mid-1700s -- a portrait of the Balkan Petar Zelaic shows a schiavona suspended from a heavy belt (see Elgood 2009 p59). This is of course much later than the age of Stradiots, and the context is naval rather than cavalry.

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Joe Pittman




Location: Memphis, Tenn.
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Ruel, I forgot about your Forensic Fashion work. Have bookmarked it for the future. I did find part of what I was looking for. Pappas online "snigle edged saber" Thanks
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe,

I've noticed something curious while putting these notes together. While writers always acknowledge two schiavona types -- one used ca.late 16th-17thc and the other later 17-18thc -- they don't seem to acknowledge two separate contexts of use; they generally just mention the first (as a cavalry sword for Dalmatian stradiots fighting for Venice against the Ottomans).

To me, it makes better sense to treat the two types of schiavona as related but different weapons, used in two different (but not necessarily exclusive) contexts: An earlier one limited to the Balkans and to light cavalry raiding, the later more broadly diffused across Europe and among cavalry, militias, and regular guard units. That's my impression at least...

Are you planning a kit of your own, based around a schiavona? If so, which type/context?

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Joe Pittman




Location: Memphis, Tenn.
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: No Kit         Reply with quote

But I am going to put a schiavona hilt on a saber blade. I thought that if Scots mercenaries came back with basket hilts on Polish and Hungarian saber blades, it was likely a schiavoni may have a schiavona hilted saber. So I was looking for historical precedent and of course images of any men at arms using or dressed with the schiavona. As far as a kit goes, there too many different aspects of a kit I want. It would be ultra modern compilation of thigh high boots and mithral ring mail. Big Grin
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Feb, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: Stradiot         Reply with quote

Ruel , I found this, but no schivona. I have a Schivona saber for a kit something like this. I like the shield, to


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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2011 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Joe,

That first picture is from Nicolle & Rothero 1989, and is late 15thc -- too early, I think, for the schiavona.
http://www.forensicfashion.com/ReferencesInPrintEnglishN.html

The schiavona in the second picture looks modern. In truth, the only historical reference to a saber-bladed schiavona I'm aware of comes from central India c.1570 -- there's one illustrated in the Bijapur Nujum al-Ulum. That manuscript page is reproduced in Elgood 2004.
http://www.forensicfashion.com/ReferencesInPrintEnglishE.html

So, if you insist on a saber-schiavona, your most appropriate kit may not be European at all, but rather a Deccani Muslim of the same time period! Cool

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Joe Pittman




Location: Memphis, Tenn.
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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject: Kits         Reply with quote

Indian Schiavona sounds interesting, will look for that image. Elgood 2004/ Hindu Arms and Armour. Decanni Muslim
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Images         Reply with quote

Ruel can(will) you post a pic of the Deccan with Shiavona? And I found this pic, listed as Stradiot Schiavona sword. Guard looks like The Windlass Ezio saber guard, and I had hoped for a connection there too. F


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Last edited by Joe Pittman on Tue 01 Mar, 2011 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Mar, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Schiavona Guard And Pommel         Reply with quote

I ment to give credit to Donald Dupuis for the guard and pommel. Donald said he made this nye on 20yrs ago. Anybody else thinking about schiavona 20yrs ago. Thanks Donald
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe,
Here's a quick shot of the Nujum al-'Ulum page in Elgood 2004, with the schiavona on the right.
There are several pages from this manuscript reproduced both in Elgood and in Hutton 2006.
http://www.forensicfashion.com/ReferencesInPrintEnglishH.html



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http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Joe Pittman




Location: Memphis, Tenn.
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Stradiot         Reply with quote

That is an interesting image, 2 of my sabers are there. Here is a stradiot listed as Greek or Albanian in the service of Venice. looks like pre Hungarian and Polish Hussar


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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: No Kit         Reply with quote

Joe Pittman wrote:
So I was looking for historical precedent and of course images of any men at arms using or dressed with the schiavona.


No wonder I got confused for a bit there. You were using "man at arms" as a general terms for common soldiers! Well, you see, by the 16th century "man-at-arms" was actually a term for the elite of the army--fully-armoured lancers on barded horses--so I was a bit at a loss when you mentioned "schiavonas on men at arms" since I don't recall having ever seen them on depictions of fully-armoured, lance-armed heavy cavalry. But I suppose now we've sorted out that matter and can lay it aside for the moment.
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Schiavona         Reply with quote

Apart from reading they were used by Doge Guardsman and became so popular that later heavy cav used them, I cannot find any in image from the Balkan- Ottoman wars or the Italian wars or on any military men.
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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Finally         Reply with quote

last of a long list of Venetian military commanders. Guseppi Vscovich. Capitan of Preasto. Last Venetian stronghold to fall to Napolean


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Samuel Bena




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Schiavona         Reply with quote

Joe Pittman wrote:
Apart from reading they were used by Doge Guardsman and became so popular that later heavy cav used them, I cannot find any in image from the Balkan- Ottoman wars or the Italian wars or on any military men.


Joe I think you just probably look in the wrong places.

The connection between Stradioti (who were predominantely of Greco-Albanian stock and not Dalmatian/Southern-Slavic) and schiavona-proper (i.e. the veneto-dalmatian "broadswords") seems little if any imho. Stradiots (just like most late medieval eastern european light horse) used Turk-inspired sabres.. Check for example the article by N.J. Pappas http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html and this drawing by Urs Graf (cca1515) of stradiots

Cheers and best of luck with the research..,

Samuel



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Stradioti, based on the work of Urs Graf, 1515.jpg

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Joe Pittman




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PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Thanks         Reply with quote

Thanks for responding. Yes, I am seeing the "no connection" between the Stradiot and the so called Schivona wielding Doge guard, probably were sword and shield infantry type. Still no pics of them or anybody using the famous Schivona. Good read.
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Samuel Bena:
The connection between Stradioti (who were predominantely of Greco-Albanian stock and not Dalmatian/Southern-Slavic) and schiavona-proper (i.e. the veneto-dalmatian "broadswords") seems little if any imho.


Vuksic & Grbasic 1993 address this directly: They say that while the original stradiots were Greek and Albanian, subsequent generations were also recruited from Dalmatia and elsewhere. Nicolle & Rothero 1989 also refer to this. Ubojite Oštrice 2003, a Croatian secondary source, speaks to the conflicting attributions but I think the confusion arises from the confounding of different time periods, rather than of different nationalities.

REFERENCES:
http://www.forensicfashion.com/1590StradiotCavalry.html

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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