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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: About a name called "kidney" of the Ballock Dagger         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

I have some questions about the ballock dagger... Question
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bd.html
Quote:
Another term, coined by Victorian-era historians in an apparent effort to downplay the sexual connotation of the dagger's form, is the kidney dagger.

It is written that "kidney" means as for "kindly" in most Japanese sites.
The kidney dagger of "Kidney" has the meaning of the kindness, too.
A ballock dagger was used for a misericorde.
A ballock dagger was used to dispatch knights(include the friend) who had received mortal wounds. etc...

Did somebody mistake "kidney" for "kindly"? WTF?!
However, the same thing is written in most Japanese sites... Question Eek! WTF?!

"Kidney" had the other meanings when I examined an English-Japanese dictionary.
for example: a man of that kidney
However, the meaning of the kindness is not found.

I examined it about the etymology of "kidney".
The correct etymology is unclear, but originally it seems to be spelling called "kidenere".
It is thought that "kidenere" is "cwid(womb)" + "ey(ovum)". (cwid and ey is old English)
The person who watched kidney for the first time...
The person named it it from the form...
After all the meaning of the kindness is not found.......

ummmm..... Does "kidney" have the meaning of "kindly", too? Question


Quote:
The name ballock dagger is derived from the phallic shape of the hilt (the two lobes of the guard combined with the shape of the grip) and the 14th century warrior's propensity for wearing the dagger directly in front of the girdle.

My English is very poor ><
Does "the front of the belt" mean "the surface of the belt?" Question
Or does "the front of the belt" mean "the stomach(navel) part of the belt?" Question
At the most of a Japanese site, there is only a description that "the two lobes of the guard resemble the testicles".

thanks ^^ Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;


Last edited by Ushio Kawana on Fri 12 Nov, 2010 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You have 2 kidneys in your body, one on each side of the spine, near your back. They connect to your bladder. They're organs for filtering and processing liquid waste (aka urine).

These daggers were sometimes (not always) worn at the front of the belt centered on the body. This is where most people have the buckle of their belt these days. Because these daggers are phallic (meaning the grip looks like two testicles and an upward pointing penis), wearing the dagger centered on your front would make it seem even more phallic.

Happy

ChadA

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Jason Hollman




Location: Derby
Joined: 12 Sep 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Further to Chad Arnow's reply: The Medieval name for the dagger 'Bollock' or 'Ballock' (English slang for testicle) refers to the double lobed shape of the guard. As Chad points out these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic (some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!). The Victorians, who were more prudish and sensitive, found the use of the term too offensive and so referred to these as 'Kidney' daggers because the shape could also be said to be reminiscent of the organ by that name (I doubt they even put the more suggestively shaped ones on public display!)
'A Stafford! A Stafford!'
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad and Jason. I understood it. Happy
Quote:
these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic

Now I look for an illust of wearing a dagger in the front.

Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

Exclamation Eek! Exclamation
Are there the photos? Question

I have simple question... http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_bd.html
Quote:
During the Middle Ages there were five main types of daggers. Each dagger was differentiated from the other types by the shape of its hilt:

ballock dagger, baselard, quillon dagger, ear dagger, and rondel dagger...
Which type is the oldest? Question Which type is the newest? Question

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a mid 14C English example of a 1/2 ballock 1/2 baselard dagger (the effigy)
Here is a 14C image which I think is East European or Italian. (The painting)



 Attachment: 141.71 KB
SIR PIERS DE GRANDISON 1355.jpg


 Attachment: 62.06 KB
Possilbe-East-European.jpg

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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy Thaks Mackenzie, Chad and Jason Happy

We knows that the shape of a ballock dagger's hilt resembles the testicles(or kidneys).
I have very simple question... Question

A) Was the hilt of the ballock dagger made with the testicles as a motif? (The testicles were motifs from a beginning...)
Or
B) The hilt became the shape of the testicles over time? (The testicles were not motifs from a beginning...)

Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
The Medieval name for the dagger 'Bollock' or 'Ballock' (English slang for testicle) refers to the double lobed shape of the guard. As Chad points out these were often worn towards the front of the belt and the handle does appear quite phallic (some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

Therefore, I think it is
B) The hilt became the shape of the testicles over time...
Is this right?

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?

ummmm... it is toooo difficult to write in English for me... Sad Sad Sad


p.s.
I was very busy... But I'm going to return to this forum ^^ Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?


Ushio,

I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned. Medieval people were far more open to dirty humour than we realize. In addition, because sex was an everyday part of life, and because, especially at the lower levels of society, there was not that much privacy, I think medieval people were in some ways less uncomfortable about sex than say people from Victorian England. This means that things like phallic imagery was something that you'd see every once in a while, like this 15th century flying phallus badge:



Also, if you've ever read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, from the late 14th century, you know that some of his stories are downright filthy, like The Miller's Tale: http://www.richardbrodie.com/Chaucer/Miller.html

So, in short, given medieval humour and sensibilities, my guess is that ballock daggers were intentionally designed that way.
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Ushio Kawana wrote:

If it is right.
Is it accidental or necessary?
Is the hilt of the ballock daggers affected by the phallic(phallicism)?


Ushio,

I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned. Medieval people were far more open to dirty humour than we realize. In addition, because sex was an everyday part of life, and because, especially at the lower levels of society, there was not that much privacy, I think medieval people were in some ways less uncomfortable about sex than say people from Victorian England. This means that things like phallic imagery was something that you'd see every once in a while, like this 15th century flying phallus badge:

Also, if you've ever read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, from the late 14th century, you know that some of his stories are downright filthy, like The Miller's Tale: http://www.richardbrodie.com/Chaucer/Miller.html

So, in short, given medieval humour and sensibilities, my guess is that ballock daggers were intentionally designed that way.


As an aside if you like the look of said pewters try http://medievalwares.com/index.php?main_page=...=66_99_102 or http://www.revivalclothing.com/pewterpinsandb...wters.aspx
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed 15 Jun, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Craig and Mackenzie Happy

Craig Peters wrote:
Quote:
I do not think we will ever know for certain. However, my guess is ballock daggers were not accidentally made to be phallic; it was intentional, planned.

ummmm... After all it is difficult to know the origin... Sad

Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

I cannot yet find photos... But I can believe that it exist!

thanks Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, nothing would feel as satifying as seeing your arch-nemisis laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor :P
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Jason Hollman




Location: Derby
Joined: 12 Sep 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Thanks Craig and Mackenzie Happy



Jason Hollman wrote:
Quote:
(some examples are even carved to resemble a complete set of male genitalia as Medieval humour and sensibilities were somewhat robust!)

I cannot yet find photos... But I can believe that it exist!

thanks Happy


http://www.castlerockmuseum.com/exhibits/daggers/DA03.1/index.php

There's a rather good example displayed here, not really much left to the imagination!

'A Stafford! A Stafford!'
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all. Thanks Sam and Jason Happy

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying(satisfying) as seeing your arch-nemisis(archenemy) laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor.

ummmmmm... sorry... My English is poor... I do not know what you mean... Sad
If this is satire or a joke... It is too difficult for me. (The English satire or jokes are different from Japanese)
When I read first... I imagined as follows... Idea
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" Eek! Eek! Eek!
"It is a very mysterious scene!!!" Eek!

Quote:
http://www.castlerockmuseum.com/exhibits/daggers/DA03.1/index.php
The earliest ballock knives are quite phallic shaped at the pommel end as well as the hilt.

If it is right...
The hilt of the ballock dagger made with the testicles as a motif. (The testicles were motifs from a beginning...)

Thanks ^^

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is reasonable to believe that "The testicles were motifs from a beginning"

mackenzie
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:
Hi all. Thanks Sam and Jason Happy

Sam Gordon Campbell wrote:
Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying(satisfying) as seeing your arch-nemisis(archenemy) laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor.

ummmmmm... sorry... My English is poor... I do not know what you mean... Sad
If this is satire or a joke... It is too difficult for me. (The English satire or jokes are different from Japanese)
When I read first... I imagined as follows... Idea
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" Eek! Eek! Eek!


Yes, it 'twas a crude joke on my behalf. But I do believe you have got it Big Grin

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 12:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all Happy

Quote:
Also, nothing would feel as satifying as seeing your arch-nemisis laying on the ground with it sticking out of his visor :P

Quote:
When I read first... I imagined as follows... Idea
"Somebody stabbed a ballock dagger through the eyeslit of visor..."
"xxxxx grow from the visor of helmet!?!?" Eek! Eek! Eek!

I think that such crude joke scene was not rare in a real battlefield...

We know that the weak points of the plate armour is...
* visor(eye slit)
* inside of the hands
* armpit
* groin
* back of knee and the back of the thigh

If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight. Eek! Laughing Out Loud WTF?!

Thanks Happy

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ushio Kawana wrote:

If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight. Eek! Laughing Out Loud WTF?!

Thanks Happy


Ushio,

We know from the late medieval manuals on fighting in armour that dagger fighting in armour very often finished on the ground, with one knight lifting the visor on the helmet of his enemy and stabbing him in the face. In some ways, with the shape of the ballock dagger, this is even more humiliating, if you know what I mean.
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James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2011 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I personally think that the two knobs of the ballock dagger were originally designed to prevent the hand from sliding down over the blade. Similarities between the knobs and testicles were quickly (if not immediately) recognized and were soon emphasized in the construction of the knife and where it was worn.
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Tue 21 Jun, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi all. Happy Thanks Craig and James Happy

Quote:
We know from the late medieval manuals on fighting in armour that dagger fighting in armour very often finished on the ground, with one knight lifting the visor on the helmet of his enemy and stabbing him in the face.

Yes. We know this thing very well.

Quote:
In some ways, with the shape of the ballock dagger, this is even more humiliating, if you know what I mean.

I think so, too, but I have some questions, too... Question
Phallic(shape) have meanning of the symbol of good-health and the poweeful-strength etc...
Phallic(shape) have many good meanings. Happy
We know that wepons and armours are often decorated.
I think... phallic(shape) decoration means the powerful of the dagger...

If a blade resembles a "shape of the rod of xxxxx" not a grip... Eek!
And if one knight killed by this dagger... Eek!
It is very humiliating... Eek!

However, the user grasps a grip(rod of xxxxx). Big Grin

ummmm... it is toooo difficult to write in English for me... Sad

Of course,
Quote:
If there is the plate armoured knight who was killed by stabbed groin with a bullock dagger.
And if the dagger sticks deeply into groin...
We see... xxxxx growing from the crotch of the knight.

This is very humiliating!

Thanks ^^

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Ushio Kawana




Location: Japan
Joined: 17 Aug 2008

Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Happy

I found strange description in Wikipedia.

Bollock dagger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollock_dagger
Quote:
The bollock dagger is the source of the expression, to get, or give, a "bollocking", meaning to give or receive a severe chastisement.[1][not in citation given]

Is this true? Question Question Question

I'm interested in Medieval Arms and Armor.
But... My English is very poor ><;
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Sun 18 Sep, 2011 12:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, yes it is true.
Also, to confuse things further, the slang term "The dogs bollocks" means something is good e.g. "That car is the dogs bollocks!"
And indeed you are correct, the symbolic meaning of a phallic object often does mean strength/power, and other such things, however it depends a lot on context. So having a bollock dagger is a good thing, whilst being stabbed with one is a bad thing. So by gripping the handle and dispatching your foe, you are symbolically displaying your strength and masculinity over them as well as, more practically, finishing them off.
However methinks perhaps one may be reading too much into it, the fact is that it's funny and that sub-context doesn't have to make much sense! Laughing Out Loud








Mind you, stabbing your mortal enemy in the genitals with ones own bollock dagger is quite humorous... Gives a whole to meaning to "wood".

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
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