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Iagoba Ferreira





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PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Problematic XIV cent. equipment in a XVI cent. painting         Reply with quote



Part of the Isenheim Altarpiece Unterlinden Museum at Colmar, Alsace, painted in 1506-1515 by Matthias Grünewald.

The question is that why the equipment of the soldiers is so clearly out of his time?

He wanted to portray "ancient" soldiers? or he copied an earlier painting? The mere possibility of this equipment being used in the early XVI is aberrant for me. Is there any research, comment or evidence regarding this subject?
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You'll see all of those forms depicted in German/Austrian artwork of the same period. It's pretty clear that they were still in use.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's possible it was an artistic convention or "shorthand" related to the status of the subjects--guards/militia associated with the Passion. Such men might typically have been armed by the state with outmoded armour. All of the images below are the same general theme and 1500-1520, and you see similar armour. Copying probably wouldn't account for all of these instances. Even Dürer shows something like this in his betrayal of Christ woodcut. All of these appear to be accurately portrayed, which suggests access to a model.


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Arek Przybylok




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Nov, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...illing.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...illing.jpg
Berner Chronicles by Diebold Schilling, 1483 (?)
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Till J. Lodemann





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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very intersting!
The Isenheimer Altarpiece shows a very self-contained style, especially this scene is exceptional in the use of colours and way the motive is depicted. I don't think that Grünewald did copy the soldier from a 14th. painting or sculpture. (On the other hand, I'm no art historian and the hole piece is peculiar...)
But that is the only true hounskull on all of the pictures, the other ones are variations of grands bassinets.

The pictures from Arek are peculiar, too.
I never saw this kind bascinet with the discs over the hinges of the visor. (How are they called?)
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Fabrice Cognot
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Nov, 2010 5:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Showing outdated equipment in paintings depicting "ancient" stories was quite common. Accurate paintings of surviving equipment used several generations ago isn't surprising. The line of thinking was like "this stuff is old, and this gear is old, so it's ok if we put the two together, it will look like totally old dude...". Proper historical accuracy wasn't the point.

In a way, it's similar to what XIXth century historians and artists did sometimes :

PhD in medieval archeology.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Nov, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fabrice Cognot wrote:
Showing outdated equipment in paintings depicting "ancient" stories was quite common. Accurate paintings of surviving equipment used several generations ago isn't surprising. The line of thinking was like "this stuff is old, and this gear is old, so it's ok if we put the two together, it will look like totally old dude...". Proper historical accuracy wasn't the point.


In this particular case, I don't agree with you.

For instance, look at this painting of Julius Civilis (25-70?) by Ferdinand Bol (1616-1680):


In this case the soldiers are depicted with "Roman style" helmets, similar to some parade helmets of the 16th-17th C.

Here's another view btw.:
http://www.wga.hu/art/g/grunewal/2isenhei/2view/2view3r2.jpg
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Neil Melville




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Nov, 2010 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Arek,
those drawings by Schilling are brilliant. Have you got any more that you can post? Thanks.
Neil

N Melville
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Arek Przybylok




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Nov, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Only that which has Wikipedia
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Di..._the_Elder
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Neil Melville




Location: Scotland
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Arek, I found some really good stuff on those sites and the links to others.
Neil

N Melville
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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Nov, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beautiful pics! Thought I'd mention the Dolstein (sp?) drawings of early 16th c Swedish militiamen, who are wearing all sorts of outdated equipment including visorless bascinets.
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One more thing.
On the right side on the horse in chain mail with short sleeves. Klappvisier Happy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...e5-188.jpg
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Adam Bodorics
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PostPosted: Fri 06 May, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I can't use imareal's search engine (with years of hard work I became a computer illiterate Happy ), I'd like to ask where to look for pictures of those steel-strips-on-leather harnesses sometimes shown in these paintings? Like the one on the second picture in this thread... thanks in advance.
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