Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Wearing gauntlets... Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Wearing gauntlets...         Reply with quote

Hello,

This is just a quick question I'd like to pose to you knowledgeable people here, since I have noone else in my vicinity to otherwise reference with.

I have a pair of steel finger gauntlets that has been custom-fitted to my hands. Or, rather, it was a pair of swordsman's leather gloves that were customised for me, and then the steel gauntlets to those!

Anywho, when I am wearing them I feel them pulling taught over the knuckles when I clench my fist - is this "how it's supposed to be"? It is not a painful sensation or even that uncomfortable either (it's almost kind of reassuring, to tell you the truth), but I'm concerned that a snug and tight fit like that would transfer more energy from an impact unto the hand than what would be ideal. For what it's worth, the fingers on the gauntlets are straps of leather riveted to the steel and covered by a raised knuckle plate, and it is the base/start of these fingers that I can feel through my leather gloves.

I'm sorry if it comes across as a fuzzy kind of question, but I'd like some input on if this is something I should be "worried" about. It would probably be a lot easier for you to answer this if you could see the actual gauntlets in question, but I do not have a picture of them at hand right now. I should be able to produce some tomorrow,

Thank you,
Emil Andersson
View user's profile Send private message
Audun Refsahl




Location: Norway
Joined: 15 Feb 2006

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

try loosening the glove from the steel gauntlet at the fingers, put them on, close your fist and then find the correct place to reconnect them.
just bacon...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's interesting that you brought up the sewing of the gloves, Audun.

You see, I received the gloves and gauntlets separately and took it upon myself to sow them together. However, the leather digits on the gauntlets were a bit longer than my own in the gloves were. I opted to sow the ends of both fingers together, with the result that if I keep a finger pointing straight, the gauntlet's leather digit will be curved above it in an arch. Is this not the correct way to place the leather gloves?

Again, I will return with pictures sometime tomorrow to better illustrate this.

Thanks,
Emil Andersson
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe a problem with gauntlets made now may be the fact that most are constructed with a 'flat' hand in mind rather then a clenched fist which, supposedly, makes a far better gauntlet.
Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
View user's profile Send private message
Chris Gilman




Location: California
Joined: 07 Dec 2007

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps the issue is the gauntlets, not the placement of the gloves. A vast majority of armour produced today lack all or most of the subtleties needed to make armour fit and function correctly.
I good tailored sport jacket or suit fits so incredibly well, once you have had one, you would ask yourself how you ever put up with an “off the peg” one. Armour is even more sensitive to this. Unfortunately there are very few armourers that have a comprehensive understanding of how to achive this level of fit & function.
On the gauntlet, does it have any plate or sliding rivets to account for the fact the distance from wrist to fingernails gets considerably longer when you clench your hand? In 14th C. gauntlets there is an additional plate under the metacarpal plate that pivots at either side of the first knuckles, the finger leathers are attached here, so when you make a fist, the plate pivots out accounting for the increase in length. (Interestingly, this is exactly the same way this is addressed in a current Spacesuit glove. In fact the 2 plates (14th C & spacesuit) look nearly identical.) On later gauntlets there were sliding rivets in the fingers and metacarpal to account for this growth in length. If your gauntlet cannot do this, then that would be why they feel tight. Also, your wrist, metacarpal and fingers are not in a straight line, and when gripping a handle, they become a bit more out of line. Another subtle thing often missed in the fitting and patterning of a gauntlet. Now I have not seen your gauntlets, so none of this may be true, but given the number of armourers I know of who understand these subtleties and the number who don’t, I’m betting on the odds. Wink

Chris
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

Thank you for your input. I have here some pictures that I hope will be helpful in showing you how the gauntlets are constructed. They were made by BestArmour.com, by the way.

You'll also have to forgive my skills as a photographer, it's really nothing to write home about...

The segmented metacarpal plate (that is the one covering the top of the hand, right?) is capable of stretching to accomodate the length of a clenched fist. It also allows for sideways movement of the wrist, although I have not captured it in photo now. You can see here:

Relaxed.

Stretched. (it can stretch a little bit further than this as well - note the emerging holes for the rivets to move in)

Now I'll show you the placement of the leather digits beneath the metacarpal plate. For reference, the first rivet of the leather fingers is right underneath the raised knuckle plate and just above my own knuckles. If I clench my fist really tight when I am strapped in completely, I can feel those rivets pushing into my hand.

Digits.

Digits + knuckle-strap for fastening the hand.

How the knuckle-strap is connected to the raised knuckle plate.

Here are some pictures of how I have sown on the leather gloves:

Pointing straight.

Pointing straight some more.

Clenched.

As a note, I am currently wearing the gauntlets with two pairs of thin synthetic gloves on, as well as the swordsman's leather gloves. This is because it gets rather cold for the fingers in nothing but the leather gloves. These synthetic gloves were not accounted for when I sent my measurements to BestArmour.com. However, as I wrote above, even without these added gloves I can feel the digit rivets pushing into my hand if I clench the fist tightly.

The prime suspect in my eyes is the knuckle-strap you can see in the digit pictures. Might it be a problem where it is pushing my clenched hand up into the digit base? Perhaps it is worth a shot to have it a little bit longer and therefore looser.

Thanks for taking your time,
Emil Andersson
View user's profile Send private message
Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: guantlets         Reply with quote

I essentially had the same issue with my guantlets. Though I didn't have any leather straps around the fingers. What I ended up doing was gluing the gloves to the leather on the inside of the gauntlets. Next I put the gauntlets on and clenched my hand, while the other hand wrapped around the gauntlet and applied pressure. Once that was dry I stitches the gloves and presto! No more discomfort! Another thing I would like to add is while the glue was drying, I had pushed up the vambrace to not prevent it to "droop" down. I had done the same thing with an older set of gauntlets and didn't take into account about the vambrace and the articulation was all messed up Eek!

If your concerned with a strike one thing iv seen done a lot in the SCA is simply put padding between the gloves and gauntlets Wink Once you sow it all up you can't even tell Big Grin
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris had the right of it: There should be some mechanism for allowing the circumference of the hand to change. This is not what we see in the photographs by Emil. The plate Chris is talking about is a small strip just ahead of the knuckles of the hand. If you look at the attached picture of my gauntlets you can see it on both gauntlets, but it is clearest on the one to the right in the picture. It is a very narrow strip between the plate covering the back of the hand and the fingers. The finger plates are actually attached to this strip (individually), and the strip itself, as you can just barely make out in the picture, is rivited on either side so that it pivots freely as I flex my hand. Just putting lots of lames over the back of the hand does not achieve this effect. (NB: These gauntlets were made by Robert MacPherson.)


 Attachment: 89.95 KB
MVC-490F.JPG
Hugh's Gauntlets

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hugh, might you be able to produce a picture that show this added strip a little bit clearer? I can't quite seem to make it out by looking at your gauntlets.

Anyway, I have detached the leather gloves from one of the gauntlets. Here are a couple of new pictures detailing the gauntlet digits.

Picture 1.

Picture 2.

Here's also another picture to show you the stretching capability afforded by the holes that the rivets can move through.

Holes.

Anyway, I think that, with some experimenting, I should be able to come up with a home-brewed solution that'll make the gauntlets realise their full potential (More Padding!), though I must say that I would be a bit disappointed if they do actually have this kind of design flaw in them. They didn't exactly come cheap, I'll tell you that much. Worried

Thank you,
Emil Andersson

Edit: Oh and by the way, was my sewing done correctly on the gauntlet in the pictures that I showed earlier?
View user's profile Send private message
Chris Gilman




Location: California
Joined: 07 Dec 2007

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The leather on the fingers is very thick, perhaps too thick. Also, the straps over the fingers and the palm are not the ideal way to hold the gauntlet on your hand. If you cut the strap so only a small tab remains on either side (about 3/8" extending from the rivets that hold the leather) and sew you glove to these. Also, sew the fingertips of your gloves onto the leathers at the end of the gauntlet finger leathers. The cuff of the glove should be similarly sewn in at the cuff of the gauntlet.
The plate Huge is referring to is not a feature of a 15th C. gauntlet like yours. The sliding rivets in the back of the hand should have the same effect if the glove is properly attached.
However, notice the shape of the fingers in relation to the rest of the gauntlet, they curve naturally like your hand. The pinky is curving further in than the index finger. this is another key feature to a gauntlet fitting well. Even a mitten gauntlet should have this “twist”.
Also a gauntlet does not need to “make a fist”, it only needs to close enough to grip whatever weapon handle you would use.
Also, I don't know why people insist on putting additional padding in their gauntlets, unless the fit is terrible. The closer the gauntlet fits to your hand, the better it will move. If however the fit is not right, then additional padding may be required to keep the gauntlet from "biting you". Hugh’s gauntlets have no padding what so ever. He has small hands, which could more easily be broken and the gauntlets protect his hands very well. But, they fit him perfectly.

Chris
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Emil Andersson wrote:
Hugh, might you be able to produce a picture that show this added strip a little bit clearer? I can't quite seem to make it out by looking at your gauntlets.


I don't have a picture that shows this better, but you can see the strip if you look closely: Look at the gauntlet on the right. Now look at the brass that goes across just in front of my knuckles. Do you see the thin strip between that brass decoration and the fingers? That's it.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good afternoon Emil,

I've circled the plate in question on a pair of gauntlets produced by Armour and Castings. The finger leathers rivet to a "rocker plate" which is then riveted to the metacarpal (back of hand) plate with two rivets. I hope this helps you see the mechanics. Happy



 Attachment: 29.98 KB
g1400sxl_1_highlight.JPG
Armour and Castings

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

OK, I took some pictures of my gauntlets, one with the hand open, the other with the hand closed. I circled the extra lame and drew an arrow to one of the pivot points where it is rivited in place. Note that when the gauntlet is open, the extra lame should pretty much disappear inside the metacarpal plate, and it rotates out to become visible when the hand is closed. This extra few degrees of rotation is what gives you the extra circumferance when you grip a weapon. And it really works! Note the battering these gauntlets have received in heavy, full-contact fighting (you can see some of the brass decoration has been crushed in), yet all my fingers still work. ( I can see they need some clean-up, though--ouch!)



 Attachment: 48.84 KB
DSCN2867.JPG
Hand closed

 Attachment: 209.85 KB
DSCN2868.JPG
Hand open

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu 21 Oct, 2010 11:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I can definately see what you were talking about now. It might've been apparent right from the start, but I'll admit to being pretty much a complete newbie to the field, so you'll have to forgive my cluelessness. Thanks for showing me. Happy

I am currently searching for some kind of historical society or reenactment group in my vicinity, thinking that they might have experience about these kind of things. I surely appreciate your thoughts about the glove attachment, Chris, and what you say about a gauntlet "making a fist" is probably true - the tightness only appears when clenched tight, as if I were going to punch something.

If I can't find anything around the neighbourhood I will send a mail to the maker(s) of the gauntlets as well. I've heard good things about BestArmour.com's willingness to - schedule permitting - take back and modify items. If nothing else I should be able to obtain further instructions or recommendations.

Thank you,
Emil Andersson
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Swedish armourers?
Gof for SPQR
http://spqr.se/web_eng/index.shtml
They have nice products and decent prices (especially for the gauntlets).

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Likes: 13 pages
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I probably too late to help--and I'm a newbie, too, although I have fought in armour since about 1985... but neither my old Robert MacPherson gauntlets nor my new Fabri Armorum gauntlets bind over the knuckles at all. And having taken a few blows in armour--you don't want the metal resting just an edge on any part of your body--but an even distribution so that if you must take a blow, some padding and the shape and distribution spread the blow...

hope that makes sense.

Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Audun Refsahl




Location: Norway
Joined: 15 Feb 2006

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

here is another one http://www.nidingbane.se/shop/
If you tell us where in sweden you are from, maybe someone knows someone that might know something...

just bacon...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're not too late at all, Christian - I haven't actually done anything to the gauntlets yet. I've learned that the best way to approach practical things such as this is to explore all of your options and taking your time before you commit to anything. You know, all that about patience being a virtue and such and such. Wink

Audun, I live way down south in Malmoe. I've got a friend who's mother is a manager of one of the museums here, and she's in contact with various medieval societies and groups for exhibitions and stuff. I'm hoping that I'll be able to find some information through there.

Thank you all for your help so far,
Emil Andersson
View user's profile Send private message
Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Likes: 13 pages
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 193

PostPosted: Fri 22 Oct, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll be in Helsinki in November--with my gauntlets--fighting at Guy Windsor's academy. I am sure Mr. Windsor knows a fair amount about such things--even more sure that his local sword maker, JT Palink (sp?) can also. But I'm being a typical North American--I have no idea how far apart your part of Sweden and his part of Finland are, but I suspect it's far...
Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Likes: 13 pages
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 193

PostPosted: Sat 23 Oct, 2010 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On my old gauntlets, (and I think I'm just repeating advice from above) I found that the issue was actually in the way the fingers were riveted at the top--the way the gloves were riveted to leather mini-straps coming from the top lame--they shortened the fingers of the glove, thus forcing my hand too far "down" the glove. When I sewed vice riveted the finger ends and caught just the tips rather than a rive through the top 2 cm, the gauntlet and glove both worked perfectly.
Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Wearing gauntlets...
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum