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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Battle of the Nations         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLCLljsihzk

So what do you guys think? Too rought?
Or realistic and better than traditional stage combact?

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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, this is undoubtedly cool.

Guys in 16th century burgonets, next to guys with 14th cent. equipment, next to ones with something that wouldn't fly west of Ułan Bator, next to completely Power Rangers stuff is as always greatest problem of such events, but combat definitely looks impressive.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ahm, ok. thats really tough stuff.
a bit too tough for my taste. maybe they should ban maces and poleaxes, i could imagine their use could lead to serious injury, more than blunted swords.
also i would regret the damage occuring to my protective gear. bascinets losing their visor... dented plates... i`ve too much feelings for my equipment for this.
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If anyone's interested, I read that they are forming a US team over at the Armour Archive for next year's Battle of the Nations.
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Bacchus Davis




Location: Seattle, WA
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You guys are going to someone killed by accident. Until then, enjoy. You all looked like you had a great deal of fun.

P.S. If your aggression levels run this high, I recommend American rules Football, Men's Flat Track Roller Derby, or Lacrosse.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It was both interesting and slightly horrifying. From time to time, you could see bascinet visors hanging loosely or a gap between a sallet visor and bevor that would have been perfect openings for some serious injuries. Also, plenty of whacks to the back and to the back of the head given to people engaged in fighting others. Pretty real-looking (as in, not scripted and with little to no rules for safety) and therefore very dangerous for sporting/recreational combat.

It just goes to show that the more realistic you get the higher the odds of injury in most cases.

Happy

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Last edited by Chad Arnow on Tue 05 Oct, 2010 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The clip doesn't give me any real idea what they're intending to do so I'll just say what I take from it: there doesn't seem to be anything strategic, sporting, or educational about it.

It appears to be a gathering of people who want to dress in armour of "somewhat historical appearance" and bash on each other. It doesn't appear that there's anything specifically historically-minded about it. There doesn't appear to be much attention spent on the safety of the spectators. It seems as though it's a free-for-all.

If any or all these things are true, I'd say it's not a very responsible thing for the participants, the spectators, and those of us in the greater community of interested parties focused on historical arms and armour. I'm of the opinion that for the greater community it very well might be damaging, or lead to something damaging.

This commentary includes the disclaimer, once again, that I only viewed the single video and have no other context associated with it.

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Reece Nelson




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: battle of the nations         Reply with quote

There would be now way in hell I would do this unless, I had a full 15th century harness that was specially tempered! This looks really rough Eek! If they were to keep a time frame it would look better Big Grin Vikings with knights looks funky Confused
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Michael Eging




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wicked and dangerous. There was some blood.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
The clip doesn't give me any real idea what they're intending to do so I'll just say what I take from it: there doesn't seem to be anything strategic, sporting, or educational about it.

It appears to be a gathering of people who want to dress in armour of "somewhat historical appearance" and bash on each other. It doesn't appear that there's anything specifically historically-minded about it. There doesn't appear to be much attention spent on the safety of the spectators. It seems as though it's a free-for-all.

If any or all these things are true, I'd say it's not a very responsible thing for the participants, the spectators, and those of us in the greater community of interested parties focused on historical arms and armour. I'm of the opinion that for the greater community it very well might be damaging, or lead to something damaging.

This commentary includes the disclaimer, once again, that I only viewed the single video and have no other context associated with it.


That about sums up my exact thoughts.

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Bartek Strojek




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:


This commentary includes the disclaimer, once again, that I only viewed the single video and have no other context associated with it.


People here are calling it buhurt in reference to medieval games.

It generally looks like that, and popular 'urban' tale is the further east, the more hardcore it gets. Razz

I didn't hear about too much serious injuries, which seems to indicate that medieval protective gear is indeed working.

But yeah, I agree that it requires rather crazed mindset to participate in mass, full contact fight with maces and two handed axes, even if they're blunt. Eek!
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are enough injuries in the SCA when using rattan, making eye contact before swinging, not kicking, not wrestling, etc., etc., etc. I couldn’t imagine hitting someone from behind with my real poleaxe swinging through a 180 degree arc! If I pulled this maneuver at an SCA event with my padded rattan poleaxe, I would be immediately removed from the field and probably permanently banned from all activities. They had to have several ambulances on standby for participants and spectators.

The thing that scared me the most was the broken sword lying on the ground near the end of the clip. Someone is going to get hurt badly, or killed.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Defintely some intent to cause pain here and there by participants, which is part of the problem. Clearly some people were much more "intense" than others. This will I think, ultimately be the undoing of it all. For one brief instant in the clip I could clearly see a gent take a shot at an opponents face, from a bind angle, and only miss landing the blow because the intended targets visor accidently slipped down at the last second. That could have been a bad scene.

Is there any way the event could be insured?

That said probably is fun to watch, and do, as long as you'e giving more than recieving.

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Boris R.





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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Battle of Nations rule, its much more aggro than that sucky girlie pretense that is SCA Razz
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Boris R. wrote:
Battle of Nations rule, its much more aggro than that sucky girlie pretense that is SCA Razz


To each their own. I prefer to have my opponents over to my campfire for a beer after combat, not visit them in the hospital.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hm.
Well I can't say I wouldn't want to try it at least once, but the hell I'm using anything other then melee spesific weapons (ie Renne sword) or a mace, or wearing anything less then maille with cuir bouilli.
I guess this is as close to a 13th century style melee one can get... But with less finese.
I must say though, more stringint guidelines on accuracy of kit would be good. As would a bigger space (like the William Marshal melee's back in the day where one had forests and hill, rivers etc) to do it in.
Maybe some actual team work would help, and since it's ment to be a melee, maybe if someone ACTUALY TRIED TO USE WMA rather then their gauntlet as a knuckle duster.
With regards to the blows from behind, I guess it's a legit way to play, as the only way to get 'out' seems to be to have had enough and leave the field.
Also I notice a lack of thrusting.
Maybe a submit (Mercy) rule? e.g. toss oponent to the ground with poleaxe (not the bumrush shove from behind), role them over, put out a dagger and hold it over their face (maybe poke them in the body or helmet for good measure).
Too rough? Well I think this type of event attracts a particular calibre of person whom may not be as, shall we say, chivalrous as one would like.
Or realistic and better than traditional stage combat? Well, stage combat is stage combat, so one can't really compare. If you mean rehearsed vs. freeplay, then I think this has it's place, as does rehearsed work (which I think can be just as fun to watch, even if the flips and spins are just fantasy Razz )
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-6GLORfF8k&feature=related the English Ad version. Love that broken English!

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Benjamin H. Abbott




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting. I think seeing so many folks in armor whacking away at each other protect a level of insight into period combat. The raised polearms sticking out over the heads of the combatants in particularly reminds me of fourteenth-century illustrations. On the other hand, I wish they made more attempt to be historical. The wild rushes that culminate in simply body slamming into the opposition and general lack of formation indicates a profound disconnect from medieval warfare as I understand it.

I share the concerns y'all have brought up about the safety of these events. I wouldn't do it myself. Getting hit in the head by a vigorous blow from a blunt axe sounds decidedly unpleasant, even with the helmet.
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
The wild rushes that culminate in simply body slamming into the opposition and general lack of formation indicates a profound disconnect from medieval warfare as I understand it.


As I understand it, that's one of the things that the US team forming at the Armour Archive wants to do: beat them by using group tactics and SCA/WMA skills.

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Sam Gordon Campbell




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am interested in the US team that Sander speaks of.
Maybe us Aussies should piece-meal a team together... After all we seem to beat everyone in other sporting events (I'm looking at you England! Laughing Out Loud )

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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 05 Oct, 2010 11:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam, ask these guys: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123797
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