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Tormod Engvig




PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Albion Europe timeline discrepancy...         Reply with quote

So, I just wanted to see if anyone had any input on the following:

I was perusing Albion Europe's website today (which is much nicer than their American home page btw) and there is a noticeable discrepancy in the "timeline" noted between the Next. Gen. Mercenary and the Squire Line "Late 15th C." Bastard sword. According to the site, the Mercenary spans a time from 1350 to 1420/1450, while the Squire Line version of the same sword spans a time from 1430 to 1470. Hmmm...

My intent is not to point out an error, but rather to ask anyone who might know; which of the timelines noted is the more accurate one? I know type XVs were in use from ca. 1350 to 1550 as per the spotlight on the topic, but does anyone know where the Merc/Squire Line Bastard might fall in this timeframe? Which, if any, of the noted timelines for either sword on the Albion Europe site is the "correct" one?

I own a Mercenary, and might be interested in mating it with a kit one of these days. It would be good to know what specific time period to focus on Happy

Cheers!

Tormod

"Skal til kamp på bølgen top, Dannebrog i stavnen op, gid der bag dets røde fold, står en helt som Tordenskjold."
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R. Connors




Location: Canada
Joined: 24 Sep 2009

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 05 Aug, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They are the same sword, excepting that the squire line 15th C. Bastard has no edge, a cheaper grip, and a lesser finish. Same sword I believe.

The timelines are not set in stone for anything this old.

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html

As usual...myArmoury has it covered.
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Tormod Engvig




PostPosted: Sun 08 Aug, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anyone else have anything they'd like to add to this little timeline conundrum?
Happy

"Skal til kamp på bølgen top, Dannebrog i stavnen op, gid der bag dets røde fold, står en helt som Tordenskjold."
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Neil Langley




Location: Stockport, UK
Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sun 08 Aug, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the blade and pommel pretty much work for the whole of the time lines given for both swords. However, I would say the scent-stopper pommel gained in popularity during the second half of the 1300's whilst the type 6 cross was getting rather dated by the mid 1400's. based on this I would go with the timeline for the Mercenary, although given the utility of the design I see no reason why some of these swords would not be knocking about in 1470. Maybe it is better to say that neither timeline is wrong but that this sword is more representitive of a turn of the 14th/15th century weapon.

Neil.
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Tormod Engvig




PostPosted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 10:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil Langley wrote:
Well, the blade and pommel pretty much work for the whole of the time lines given for both swords. However, I would say the scent-stopper pommel gained in popularity during the second half of the 1300's whilst the type 6 cross was getting rather dated by the mid 1400's. based on this I would go with the timeline for the Mercenary, although given the utility of the design I see no reason why some of these swords would not be knocking about in 1470. Maybe it is better to say that neither timeline is wrong but that this sword is more representitive of a turn of the 14th/15th century weapon.

Neil.


Yeah, that was my feeling as well. Though I've heard several sources consider the scent-stopper to be exclusive to the post-14th century, I find that hard to believe. I don't have Oakeshott in front of me, but I believe the scent-stopper form was in use (though maybe not in it's facted form?) as early as the mid-14th century at least.

If I was to get myself a kit I would want to portray a Scandinavian mercenary or man-at-arms from either a) the Hanseatic Wars of the 1360s, or b) the Kalmar Union Wars of the later 15th century. Part of the reason I chose the NextGen Merc was because it seemed to me to be a very "representative" sword type of a simple design which could have seen service with anyone from a (surprise, surprise) mercenary to a man-at-arms (though a less affluent one, perhaps) accross a large time period and geographic area. But if I am off on any of this I am very interested to hear any dissenting opinions anyone may have.

If I'm not mistaken Scandinavian equipment also tended to be slightly anachronistic compared to Western and Central Europe.

"Skal til kamp på bølgen top, Dannebrog i stavnen op, gid der bag dets røde fold, står en helt som Tordenskjold."
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tormod,

Going from the description of the persona I would not recommend the Mercenary as your first option.

You will see quite some difference in swords used in the 1360 to those in vogue in the later years of the Union Wars.

For the earlier time period I would recommend swords like Crecy, Duke, Vassal, Sempach, Landgraf, Squire, Steward or Poitiers. As first choices I would go for Duke, Steward or Sempach. If you need a single hander I would go for Squire or Poitiers.

For the later years of the 15th C your choices are: Dane, Soldat, Knecht, any of the long XVa´s, Burgundian (possibly), Kingmaker (possibly).
Looking at swords for this later period in Scandinavia, large swords seems to be more common than single handers. For shorter side arms it is my impressions that they used large daggers or messer type of weapons. If you need a single hander, I would go for any sword that was popular in northern europe. Kingmaker or Burgundian could be reasonable choices.
The Dane is otherwise your obvious candidate.

It is absolutely possible to imagine an older type of sword still in use. Even a sword of thin and broad section, like the Tritonia or a sword like the Lancaster or even the Hospitaller (as an old handed down sword, given you provide it with some patina from use)
It depends much on what kind of soldier you would want to portray. The more professional, the more up to date equipment. If it is some land owning man with duties to enlist for military service, you can well mix new equipment with the odd detail that is older. A modern kettle hat, with a 30 year old kastenbrust breast plate, a big old dagger or messer, plus the Dane and a pole arm like a staff sword, would be a credible image of a Swedish fighter. Add large stave built water flask, sleeping roll and wide trousers and you have the spitting image!



 Attachment: 73.02 KB
Dolstein_1.gif
The guy on the left is a Swede, the one on the right is a fashionable and efficient Landsknecht
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Tormod Engvig




PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Tormod,

Going from the description of the persona I would not recommend the Mercenary as your first option.

You will see quite some difference in swords used in the 1360 to those in vogue in the later years of the Union Wars.

For the earlier time period I would recommend swords like Crecy, Duke, Vassal, Sempach, Landgraf, Squire, Steward or Poitiers. As first choices I would go for Duke, Steward or Sempach. If you need a single hander I would go for Squire or Poitiers.

For the later years of the 15th C your choices are: Dane, Soldat, Knecht, any of the long XVa´s, Burgundian (possibly), Kingmaker (possibly).
Looking at swords for this later period in Scandinavia, large swords seems to be more common than single handers. For shorter side arms it is my impressions that they used large daggers or messer type of weapons. If you need a single hander, I would go for any sword that was popular in northern europe. Kingmaker or Burgundian could be reasonable choices.
The Dane is otherwise your obvious candidate.

It is absolutely possible to imagine an older type of sword still in use. Even a sword of thin and broad section, like the Tritonia or a sword like the Lancaster or even the Hospitaller (as an old handed down sword, given you provide it with some patina from use)
It depends much on what kind of soldier you would want to portray. The more professional, the more up to date equipment. If it is some land owning man with duties to enlist for military service, you can well mix new equipment with the odd detail that is older. A modern kettle hat, with a 30 year old kastenbrust breast plate, a big old dagger or messer, plus the Dane and a pole arm like a staff sword, would be a credible image of a Swedish fighter. Add large stave built water flask, sleeping roll and wide trousers and you have the spitting image!


Tjena Peter!

Talk about getting your information straight from the source! I appreciate your input. It's good to know which Albion models most closely approximate something that could have been found in Scandinavia during the 14th-15th centuries. I remember seeing the exact sketch you posted in one of Osprey's books.

There also is the issue of regional differences even within Scandinavia. The Danes relied heavily on German mercenaries (which, I am sure would have included some native Danes as well) and the native Danish troops, especially those with greater means, would probably have had a more modern style than the Swedish levies. But, like you said, depending on where the individual fell on the class totem-pole would greatly determine how modern his equipment would have been. Sten Sture at Brunkeberg probably wasn't armored like the guy in the sketch!

So I have to ask, where and when then does a sword like the Mercenary fall in your opinion? Were shorter bladed XVa swords a more common occurence on the continent perhaps?

Tackar Happy
Tormod

"Skal til kamp på bølgen top, Dannebrog i stavnen op, gid der bag dets røde fold, står en helt som Tordenskjold."
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