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Connor Lynch





Joined: 27 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Teutonic knight`s great helm with metal wings         Reply with quote

Here is a picture of a teutonic knight and i wanted to know if anyone has an actual picture of one just see if they really do exist
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Reece Nelson




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: teutonic knight helm         Reply with quote

Try this thread. They speak about the crest on top of the helms and have some pics posted.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=112400



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Dan R




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The crest is made of shaped and molded leather. I believe there are at least 2 extant. There is one in the Hofburg (spelling) museaum in Austria.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jul, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They Show up in late 13th early 14th artwork fairly often. Take a look at the Manessa Codex.

RPM
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Michele Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Use of leather wings on great-helms         Reply with quote

It is interesting to learn that there is an example from history of the winged great helm of the Teutonic Knights. However, logic dictates (especially as there is a surviving specimen) that the use of decoratives was used primarily in tournaments, jousts, etc. If I were a knight of that era, as with the Norsemen in earlier centuries, I would avoid such ornamentation on my armour in serious combat. There is extensive documentation that supports that horns on Nordic battle helmets are the stuff of fancy, and not supported by archeological evidence. I believe it is the same with horns, wings, etc. on Medieval European helms. An enemy in actual combat could use such superfluous decor against the wearer.
Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Use of leather wings on great-helms         Reply with quote

Michele Hansen wrote:
It is interesting to learn that there is an example from history of the winged great helm of the Teutonic Knights. However, logic dictates (especially as there is a surviving specimen) that the use of decoratives was used primarily in tournaments, jousts, etc. If I were a knight of that era, as with the Norsemen in earlier centuries, I would avoid such ornamentation on my armour in serious combat. There is extensive documentation that supports that horns on Nordic battle helmets are the stuff of fancy, and not supported by archeological evidence. I believe it is the same with horns, wings, etc. on Medieval European helms. An enemy in actual combat could use such superfluous decor against the wearer.


Well, we have paintings of crests being used in battle. Also, what we consider excessive ornamentation was also a way for a wealthy person to be recognized on the battlefield. Recognition could be the difference between being killed on the battlefield and being captured, treated well, and ransomed back to your family.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Michele Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Aug, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Use of leather wings on great-helms         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Michele Hansen wrote:
It is interesting to learn that there is an example from history of the winged great helm of the Teutonic Knights. However, logic dictates (especially as there is a surviving specimen) that the use of decoratives was used primarily in tournaments, jousts, etc. If I were a knight of that era, as with the Norsemen in earlier centuries, I would avoid such ornamentation on my armour in serious combat. There is extensive documentation that supports that horns on Nordic battle helmets are the stuff of fancy, and not supported by archeological evidence. I believe it is the same with horns, wings, etc. on Medieval European helms. An enemy in actual combat could use such superfluous decor against the wearer.


Well, we have paintings of crests being used in battle. Also, what we consider excessive ornamentation was also a way for a wealthy person to be recognized on the battlefield. Recognition could be the difference between being killed on the battlefield and being captured, treated well, and ransomed back to your family.


Good point, Chad. That's what I get for thinking like a hedge-knight, and not a baron. LOL! However, your reply does beg the question: Many of those paintings depict men of high nobility--is it logical for a prince, earl, or other wing commander to lead the charge, as paintings depict them, or would they (admittedly wearing their gorgeous crests for easy recognition) stay behind the front observing, and giving orders? One must wonder if the illuminations of the day were idealized depictions of heroism, rather than accurate eye-witness accounts of a warrior's role on the field. I will give you this much. If I were rich, I would DEFINITELY show it off to better my odds of survival should the enemy break through.



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This is a nice illustration, albeit a better example of pre-Raphaelite romanticism, than a historically correct battle charge...

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Aug, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Use of leather wings on great-helms         Reply with quote

Michele Hansen wrote:
However, your reply does beg the question: Many of those paintings depict men of high nobility--is it logical for a prince, earl, or other wing commander to lead the charge, as paintings depict them, or would they (admittedly wearing their gorgeous crests for easy recognition) stay behind the front observing, and giving orders? One must wonder if the illuminations of the day were idealized depictions of heroism, rather than accurate eye-witness accounts of a warrior's role on the field.


It was fairly logical for such leader to lead the charge. After all, they didn't have radios, and the military tactics of the time sought to make the best use of herd behavior (for both humans and horses), so in many cases the most effective way for a leader to get his men to advance was simply to set the example by . . . well, advancing at the head of his men. Note that, as late as in the mid-19th century (say, the American Civil War), only generals who commanded divisions and larger units were supposed to lead from the (immediate) rear. Brigade commanders and lower were still supposed to lead from the front or at least from among their men. I'm not so sure about later periods but I can imagine the same paradigm still being followed into the Franco-Prussian War, the Russo-Japanese War, or even the opening months of World War I albeit perhaps at progressively lower levels of command (just look at all those prewar drills with whole companies lying down prone in neat lines with skirmishers screening ahead and officers crouching, kneeling, or even standing at identifiable places!).
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Michele Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 10 Aug, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Use of leather wings on great-helms         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

"It was fairly logical for such leader to lead the charge. After all, they didn't have radios, and the military tactics of the time sought to make the best use of herd behavior (for both humans and horses), so in many cases the most effective way for a leader to get his men to advance was simply to set the example by . . . well, advancing at the head of his men. Note that, as late as in the mid-19th century (say, the American Civil War), only generals who commanded divisions and larger units were supposed to lead from the (immediate) rear. Brigade commanders and lower were still supposed to lead from the front or at least from among their men..."

Thank you, Lafayette! Between you, Mr. Arnow and others on this thread, the whole purpose of Teutonic Knights wearing their leather horns becomes eloquenty simple. During the melee, a commander might become separated from his standard. His crest could serve as a rallying point for his troops, and as Chad pointed out, keep him alive to fight another day.

As for the battle (wing) commander leading a charge? "the most effective way for a leader to get his men to advance was simply to set the example by . . . well, advancing at the head of his men." (Curtis) In life-and death-struggles? Absolutely! And it's not about herd mentality; it is about INSPIRING his men to emulate his courage! As the crest rides high, e'en so the morale! Happy

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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