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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Accuracy of visored barbute at Armour and Castings?         Reply with quote

Is anyone aware of historical sources showing the type of visored barbute being sold by Armour and Castings? Or better yet, does anyone have pics of the original that is supposed to be at Musee de l'Armee in Paris? I'd just like to know how accurate this reproduction is.


http://armourandcastings.com/index.php?_a=vie...ductId=254

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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In several threads all over the topic concerned forums it is said to be a helmet without a visor and the visor was added much later and doesnīt belong to that particular helmet.
I donīt know wether there are pictures in art that show this style though. Then you would end up with an interpretive recreation.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The visor is likely not associated to the helm. I believe they are not displayed together any longer.

If I'm right, then the Armour and Castings piece is replicating something that was erroneously assembled in the first place.



 Attachment: 60.39 KB
helms.jpg
Comparing the Musee de l'Armee helm to the one by Armour and Castings

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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys!
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Michal Plezia
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jul, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the helmet itself is not a barbute, but the late bascinet (it was also decribed as a italian 1430 or 1420 bascinet in a book- can't remember a title). I believe that the shape of the top is more important for the classification than the shape of the face opening.

Is it not the same piece? :

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N Cioran




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's worth saying that helmet looks very much like the one from the late 14th century drawing of Francesco Carrara Novello. I'll try to dig up a soft copy...
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Greg Mele
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I always think of this as the "Visored Gondorean Helmet". Wink

(And actually, I mean that in a good way - I've always loved this piece.)

Due to its oddity, and I *thought* wear pattern between visor and skull, there is a lot of doubt that the pieces go together. There is also the idea that barbutes aren't visored. *However*, complicating issues, the hinge seemed to fit the original helmet, and although it has a high point, the overall form is not too different than a number of helms displayed in early 15th c romances and usually thought to be jousting helms (whether the figures are jousting or not).

Cole,

I seem to recall something similar in an image of Francesco da Carrara, too, although I thought it was a most contemporary rendering? I did a quick Google but came up with nothing.

Bill,

Considering how much flux and variation goes on in early 15th c armour, not to mention the many, many permutations of the great bascinet from the era, and the blurred lines between bascinet and barbuta in some cases, I think this is a viable piece if you really like it.

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N Cioran




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like the Gondor reference Happy

Now, on to the pic... here we go!

From Vergerius' De Principibus Carrariensibus, circa 1400, Museo Civico Padua...

Enjoy!
Cole



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Francesco Cararra Novello [ Download ]
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Simon G.




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
From Vergerius' De Principibus Carrariensibus, circa 1400, Museo Civico Padua...


Mmm, this one looks like a "standard" jousting great helm, all in one piece, without any hinged visor.
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