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Harry J. Fletcher




Location: Lost in Texas
Joined: 19 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jul, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Ordered Baron from Albion         Reply with quote

My last post concerned purchasing a Tinker long sword from Hanwei but fortunately the vendor didn't follow thru with the order in a timely fashion and I was able to cancel it. After serious negotiation with my wife (the way it is done in our household) I got to order the Baron from Albion and she...well, I shall not go into that part of the deal.

I noticed a $100 price increase (ouch! ouch!) but what the heck, I know Albion makes a good sword and have read the review here on myArmoury. Although the blade is touted as a Type XIIa for all the world it looks like a Type XXIIIa except for the tapering to a point rather than a spatulate point as on the Type IIIa blade. I can see why Oakshott made the mistake of labeling it a Type IIIA and then 30 years later recataloged it as a Type IIa sword.

Another note I made was that it was heavier than the Count and Gallowglass while the Chieftain was only 2 oz heavier which surprised me. The blade is slightly longer than either the Count or the Chieftan and only 1/8 inch less than the Gallowglass. Anyway, I have paid my money and now anxiously await the arrival of my new sword.

Chieftain
blade 36 inches
weight 3 lbs 13 oz

Gallowglass
blade 37 3/8
2 lbs 9 oz

Count
blade 34 inches
weight 2 lbs 12 oz

Baron
blade 37 1/4 inches
weight 3 lbs 11 oz

Just a bit of advice to everyone here, do not buy a copy of Oakshott's work on medeival swords or you will end up spending a lot of money buying swords after perusing the book several times.

Regards,

Harry

To Study The Edge of History


Last edited by Harry J. Fletcher on Wed 07 Jul, 2010 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jul, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry,
Congrats on a fine purchase. Happy The main difference between the Types XIIa and XIIIa is the amount of taper to the point. So if that's the only difference you see, it's correct. Happy I think the decision Oakeshott made to make a Type XIIa and move some former XIIIa's into it was a wise one.

Happy

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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jul, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would be correct to say that even a slight difference in the length of Fuller makes different the two types?
At least as an archetype or an ideal example of a type XIIIa.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Jul, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
Would be correct to say that even a slight difference in the length of Fuller makes different the two types?
At least as an archetype or an ideal example of a type XIIIa.


Sure, if you want to nitpick. Happy A XIIIa of classic form should have a fuller that is a bit shorter than a classic Type XIIa. But there are examples of XIIIa swords with longer fullers and XIIa with shorter fullers. The bigger difference in the types is the pointiness (or lack thereof) of the tip end of the blade.

Happy

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Neil Gagel




Location: Oklahoma City
Joined: 08 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jul, 2010 6:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ultimately I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to try to shoehorn blades into the specific categories as defined by Oakshott's typeology. Some swords defy strict classification and instead blend together aspects of the various types. Point in case, the Albion Brescia Spadona - is it a type XVIa or XVIIIa?
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jul, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil,
I agree in general, especially when discussing surviving antique swords. But in this case, it's pretty cut and dry. The swords in the Next Gen lineup are, by and large, meant to be pretty classic (typical) examples of the type they represent. The Museum Line swords are pretty exacting copies of extant swords, so they wil ride the lines between types as much as the original sword did.

Happy

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Neil Gagel




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jul, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very true when it comes to the Albion Next Gen lineup, it was more of a commentary about not getting too hung up on typology, but rather just enjoying a blade for its finer qualities. For instance, not too long ago I saw a post on a different forum where someone criticized the Valiant Arms Malatesta for failing to neatly fall into one of the Oakshott types...
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jul, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neil Gagel wrote:
Very true when it comes to the Albion Next Gen lineup, it was more of a commentary about not getting too hung up on typology, but rather just enjoying a blade for its finer qualities. For instance, not too long ago I saw a post on a different forum where someone criticized the Valiant Arms Malatesta for failing to neatly fall into one of the Oakshott types...


The issue with the Malatesta is that its parts, while relatively historical when taken separately, were not found in that combination historically as far as I know. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Harry J. Fletcher




Location: Lost in Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Jul, 2010 9:33 pm    Post subject: Parts and blade         Reply with quote

Chad and Neil: I think that as Oakshott pointed out, cutlers sometimes used whatever crosses and pommels they had or that these parts were transfered from a worn out blade to a new blade. So there was a mix and match going on in medieval times much as sword manufacturers today tend to do the same with the parts on hand. Again as Oakshott pointed out the only dependable part of the sword to type and date is the blade and its characteristics.

Harry

To Study The Edge of History
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Jul, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: Parts and blade         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
Chad and Neil: I think that as Oakshott pointed out, cutlers sometimes used whatever crosses and pommels they had or that these parts were transfered from a worn out blade to a new blade. So there was a mix and match going on in medieval times much as sword manufacturers today tend to do the same with the parts on hand. Again as Oakshott pointed out the only dependable part of the sword to type and date is the blade and its characteristics.

Harry


Yes, kind of. In the case of the Malatesta, the blade is a much earlier style than the hilt. Could it have been an old blade remounted 100 or more years after the fact? Sure. But we have no historical precedent for that combination; ie. no surviving swords in that configuration. While it may be plausible, why not simply choose to replicate something you know existed rather than something you have to explain and/or make up back stories in order to justify? Happy

But now we're not talking about the Baron and getting further off-topic. My apologies. Back to the thread....

Happy

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