Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Coat of plates suspension chain Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Jared Lambert




Location: Chandler, AZ
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Coat of plates suspension chain         Reply with quote

Lately i have been looking at coats of plates and have seen in both a couple illustrations and an actual piece a type of coat of plates with a suspension chain on the chest plate in illustrations i sometimes see the chest plate on the outside in an oblong shape almost a circle and i am wondering how useful a weapon suspension chain would be. I would think it would get in the way and hinder ones ability to fight.

any info or pics would be greatly appreciated,
Thank you



 Attachment: 68.18 KB
1.jpg
this is the only actual example i could find
View user's profile Send private message
Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 5:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I now want one of those! And it looks silvered too.
With regards to fighting, I suppose if the chains were just the right length, then an opponent would have difficulty grabbing them and as such they wouldn't get in ones own way to much.
That said, I can see why one would do it for a dagger (if you lose that you're probably stuffed), but as for a sword, maybe only in a tournament or something. What the third one's for I have no clue. Back up chain?



 Attachment: 131.89 KB
pic_mail06.jpg
See, for a dagger it makes sense to me; but other things, I'm not so sure.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
Founder of The Van Dieman's Land Stage Gladiators.
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a pic of a chain securing a great helm:



I've seen images of them securing swords, daggers, and helms.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Adam O'Byrne





Joined: 09 Sep 2008

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am a total amateur when it comes to historical armor but it does remind me of a modern tactical vest in a way.. the first thing that sprang to mind when looking at the image was that the chains were hung symmetrically, leading me to believe that instead of weapons it could be for carrying ammunition such as bolts. I'm not sure how they would have been carried normally though. Also I wondered if they were anchored at the bottom if they would provide any worthwhile protection beyond what the armor usually did, or maybe this was all made for someone so tired of being knocked off his horse he chained himself to the saddle Wink.

Obviously I'm just guessing but I find it interesting to guess at somethings uses =)

Good luck finding your answers
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect that they were generally intended to be used from horseback, when range of motion you do with the weapon is diferent from one you do when dismounted, and it is somewhat limited - and risk of loosing a weapon while mounted is higher than when fighting on ground as the horse is moving and should a weapon leave you hand it is as good as gone unless you have it secured somehow...
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Lambert




Location: Chandler, AZ
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sam thanks for the pic and I to could see that working with a dagger. Artis the idea of it being used mainly on horseback also makes sense because of the amount of force used loosing your weapons could be a big problem. I cant remember where i saw it but i saw a drawing of a coat of plates with suspension chains and his sword had multiple chains attached to it.
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My understanding is that the chains were detachable at both ends. One did not actually use the weapon with it firmly attached to your BP.
View user's profile Send private message
János Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greetings!
These chains on the coats of plates always confused me. But your comments opened my eyes! Indeed, these chains seems to be in connection with the arms and helmets of the knights. There are some examples of these kind of fittings in the book: Armour from the battle of Wisby 1361, written by Bengt Thordeman. The surprising is that almost all of them came from the present territory of Germany. If any of you met with similar construction, please, correct my missleading idea, but for me, this style, construction seems to be a German invention.
Actually I might come up with a counter opinion in this reply... Big Grin
In the Chronica picta (Hungarian manuscript from around 1360) multiple warriors are being presented wearing something strange, suspender looking leather (?) strap over their tabard (or coat of plates).
This might have served the same function?
And just a nother question: Jared, where did they find the armour, presented in your attachment? It is a really interesting and well preserved piece, it would be good to know a bit more about it.
Best wishes!

John



 Attachment: 42.07 KB
Krakkó ostroma (Szt. László pajzsa kétszeresen hajlított és ívelt.).jpg
Siege of Kraków from the Chronica picta
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,144

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It also seems to have been a local ( mostly German I think ? ) fashion for a limited amount of times.

I can see getting tangled up in the chain(s) or having loose sharp weapons violently bouncing around randomly if one loss control of them by dropping it.

The chains could also be used by an opponent to their advantage in close range wrestling.

The few advantages of not loosing one's dropped weapons counterbalanced by the negatives I think.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The use of a chain from the breastplate or Coat of plates to the great helm is also common outside of Germany in 14th c.

Since most of us don't ride horses in full armour anymore (we walk around in our armour on foot at our events) the use of these chains seem counter-intuitive but I think if you look at it from a period perspective of being mounted on horse it makes sense
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It wasn't uncommon in Italy. I'll post a number of images when I get a chance.

I'll also take a gander at some English brasses and see if I find it there as well.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,144

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
It wasn't uncommon in Italy. I'll post a number of images when I get a chance.

I'll also take a gander at some English brasses and see if I find it there as well.


Good to know, then it was an international thing during a specific time interval until it went out of popularity I guess.

I did remember or misremembered seeing this more often on German armour art ( Osprey paintings ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,131

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some Italian examples, dating from the 1350s-1360s or so.


 Attachment: 77.37 KB
chains1.jpg


 Attachment: 105.78 KB
chains1a.jpg
Detail of above

 Attachment: 103.71 KB
chains2.jpg


 Attachment: 58.22 KB
chains3.jpg


 Attachment: 57.12 KB
chains4a.jpg
Detail of final image

 Attachment: 158.13 KB
[ Download ]

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jared Lambert




Location: Chandler, AZ
Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Janos it was found at the Hirschstein bei Passau Castle (Germany) and it is from around 1350. Also another question after looking at the 24 types of coat of plates at the Wisby find This is one of the first coats of plates i have seen with a massive single chest piece i normally see them with L plates.
View user's profile Send private message
János Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jun, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Jared for the quick reply, and for you all, who has helped me with my misconcepts! Happy
In the previous question you ment the armour in the first picture, right? Well, if you take a careful look at the armour #2 from the 1361 battle of Wisby, you can see that the two upper plates on the chest are being connected by means of riveting. It might be a later modification on the piece, but the top edge of the iron rib lying on it becomes a bit higher, where it meets with the plate. Was it a simple shortcut for forge welding? They simply riveted together two pieces? Anyways, it's an unique solution amongst the finds.
John
View user's profile Send private message
Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: What's with the crazy chains?         Reply with quote

Hey everyone, I've been going through the effigies of some German knights from 1325-1375, and a recurring thing I'm seeing is chains coming from the chest area, usually to their weapons. Check these guys out, especially the last one:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ludwi.../original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fm1553282a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/albrecht_von_hohenlohe/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ludwig_ii_der_eisernen/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00917g07a.jpg

These were just a few of the examples I've seen. I did a search on here, but didn't find anything. So, why would anyone have these chains attached to their weapons (?) and chest? Wouldn't this be a fairly bad idea in a fight? I can't think of any reason to have them unless you drop your sword a lot, but I can't see that having it chained to you would be beneficial.

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
View user's profile Send private message
Evan G.




Location: Kentucky
Joined: 27 Aug 2011

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe they were all 2LT's?

I kid, I kid Big Grin

Seriously though, I really don't know. I would say that this might be a case of art trumping reality, but it seems like that wouldn't occur the same way so many times...
View user's profile Send private message
Tormod Engvig




PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaken it was to keep the weaponry attached to the knight in case it slipped from his hand. It definitely had a practical application.
"Skal til kamp pĺ břlgen top, Dannebrog i stavnen op, gid der bag dets rřde fold, stĺr en helt som Tordenskjold."
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 382

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

just like the modern chain on the wallet, just in case it falls out your pocket you won't lose it,
Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

PostPosted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tormod's got the right of it - the chains are meant to keep weapons from being lost in the event they slip from or are otherwise removed from the hands of the knight the chains are attached to. It is a fashion/design detail that held on in Germany (or areas of Germanic influence in armour) a little longer than the rest of the continent or in England.

As displayed in the linked to images, along with a few other specific design details, marks a particular armour/kit as specifically German-styled in the (very broadly) similar "international style" of armour at the time.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Coat of plates suspension chain
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum