Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > shoulder (plate) armour 1320-1350 Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Nathan Quarantillo




Location: Eastern Panhandle WV, USA
Joined: 14 Aug 2009

Posts: 279

PostPosted: Wed 02 Jun, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: shoulder (plate) armour 1320-1350         Reply with quote

Hello all, I am wondering about shoulder plate armour in the 1320-1350 period.
I kno about the solid disk pointed to an undergarmet,
but I was really wondering about this piece for merctailior. The styling seems to be right, but would the multi-lame construction be too advanced for the period?
Also, on the actual pointing itself, would one have points on the gambeson/aketon/arming coat, or just point the armour directly to the maille? It sounds horribly complicated to get the points in between rings in the maille, or is there a way to do this right?

all help is appreciated, thanks.



 Attachment: 95.88 KB
the shoulder armour in question...... [ Download ]

"Id rather be historically accurate than politically correct"
View user's profile Send private message
Bryan Robbins




Location: Austin
Joined: 05 Mar 2010

Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 6:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that it was a rarity to see anything that advanced in that time, id go with plain circuler shoulders or plates like in this modern mock up(drawing):



I hope I did the link correctly[/img]

Question with boldness,

Speak without fear,

Hold to the truth.- Thomas Jefferson
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 87 books

Posts: 643

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: shoulder (plate) armour 1320-1350         Reply with quote

Nathan Quarantillo wrote:
Also, on the actual pointing itself, would one have points on the gambeson/aketon/arming coat, or just point the armour directly to the maille? It sounds horribly complicated to get the points in between rings in the maille, or is there a way to do this right?


I've used both methods with success. I personally like pointing to my gambeson through the maille. It's really no extra work and I've woven in contrasting color rings at the locations I point through. This makes arming up a snap.

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe not quite 1320s by 1330s though I think something like it perhaps. First thing we need to do is look at artwork from that time. Effigies (gothic eye is good but there are some good ones coming up with more effigies in them), artwork (like the Romance of Alexander 1344) you need to see and get familiar with the differences between shoulders protection in the 1st half of the 14th, 2nd and into the 15th.

I'd say these really are not 14th, especially not the period of the 14th you are looking for. Take a look at the mourners on the Hastings effigy for example. tons and tons of spaulders but they are unlike those ones in a few ways. One the top plate is much shorter. Another is the lower lames are thinner. Last is that they do not extend down the upper arm as far. When you look at spaulders of the 14th century they tend to be fairly short compared to late ones coupled with long rerebraces.

If you contact Merc Tailior I suspect he could easily make what you are looking for. I have a pattern kicking around here of one as well.

The picture Bryan posted to me is 1280s to maybe 1310s but during the 1310s is when the number of bits of plate begins to proliferate rather quickly. By 1320 it has become fairly common to have plate limb armour of some nature.

I as Scott have done both and either work. I use mail currently for most my limb armour but the shoulders (when I use them) varies.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
JŠnos Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh, my heart is broken! I have a pair of similar spaudlers, and they turned out to be too advanced for the XIVth century. Worried
I guess I'll have to make a nother pair. Big Grin I just wanted to say that I use leather laces to attach them to my (butted) mail, (chain- , not e- ) wich consist of 1,6 mm (14 gauge) thick rings, with 6mm (a bit less than 1/4") inner diameter. It worked well for me, altough I had to ,,sharpen" the ends of these thin leather strap to make them get trough the armour.
Best wishes!

John
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some good links.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/

http://www.gothiceye.com/

http://www.arador.com/articles/spaulders.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.9068.html

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think if you look at Romance of Alexander it is clear that simple types of espaliers are relatively common by the end of your period (1350), but maybe in 1320 not so much.

I have those and disagree with Randall a bit, stylistically they are not that long. On my arms they don't reach a rerebrace for use in a 15th c kit. I point them over mail at the shoulders for my mixed mail and plate and COP 14th c outfit.

They are fairly simple and are on leathers only. The dishing on the ones I have are nice and the bottom lame has a rolled edge. simple effective shoulder armour.

I am sure Allan could make a three lame pair for you if you wanted instead of four or you could just cut and re-do the leathers using three lames instead of four.
View user's profile Send private message
Sander Marechal




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 671

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bryan Robbins wrote:
...or plates like in this modern mock up


Those are ailettes I think. They don't protect much at all but are just used to display heraldy.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In addition to the excellent links Randall provided you might want to look these over as well.... I understand Doug Strong recently updated them

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effi...figies.htm

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm


and the photos at:

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm
View user's profile Send private message
Jared Smith




Location: Tennessee
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,532

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A word of caution on basing conclusions off of effigies. I have counted on a couple to indicate that some aspect of armour depicted was an early example. In a couple instances, I later found that the effigies were known to have been erected 25 years, and 75 years after the date of death. I plan to try to be certain of the date that the effigy was erected in the future when drawing conclusions from them.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,134

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
A word of caution on basing conclusions off of effigies. I have counted on a couple to indicate that some aspect of armour depicted was an early example. In a couple instances, I later found that the effigies were known to have been erected 25 years, and 75 years after the date of death. I plan to try to be certain of the date that the effigy was erected in the future when drawing conclusions from them.


There are also a few of these laid down before the person died. Happy Checking the date is always a good idea.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Derek Estabrook




Location: Alexandria, Virginia
Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 129

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jun, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those look like ailettes to me as well and they were not intended for protection at all (especially since they were almost always made of wood or leather). I side with Oakeshott's hypothesis that they were used for decoration and the displaying of heraldry rather than as a protective element. I think most of the scholars who proposed otherwise were thrown off by the transitional time period in armour and the fact that most of them seem to not be the types to field test or research beyond the purely scholarly/ bookish realms.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Fri 04 Jun, 2010 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom,

I don't know still. The differences between it are more than simple length. On first half of the fourteenth century spaulders the lames are short, the top cap is short and generally the spaulders are short because of this. This works because the rerebraces were long, likely nearly the entire length of the upper arm. This is very different from fifteenth century, even some second half of the fourteenth century spaulders and rerebraces, where the former get longer and the latter get smaller.

I have no doubt that merc tailor could easily do it but off the rack like this they just do not look like any evidence we have for first half of the fourteenth spaulders. That said the shoulder cops I &II are good for this date off the rack.

Jared,
A good point. As Chad said it goes both ways, De Cobham being alive for some 50 years after his effigy was done. That said dating effigies is nearly impossible unless we have a paper trail. Some have tried to date many effigies by likeness to other effigies instead of date of death only to find they have moved entire groups of them to the wrong period. Date of death, unless otherwise noted to me is the most solid dating. Illustrations have become my recent favorite for visual guidance as usually they can be firmly dated... the difficulty is interpretation usually. Guess there is no such thing as a free lunch. In the end a combo of artworks, texts, etc. is always best to round it out.


RPM
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > shoulder (plate) armour 1320-1350
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum