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Julien M




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PostPosted: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject: MRL sword of Auray project         Reply with quote

Hi guys,

I've recently purchased and dismounted the MRL sword of Auray and I'm looking at possible designs for it.
Guard and pommel will be done in wax then cast, grip in either case will be made of dark bone.

Two possible inspirations: the Wallace fishtail or the Cluny fishtail. In both cases, the blade of the Auray is broader than these two originals, but the blade type fits the bill...I'll just adapt the guard and will enlarge it...I just have to get the proportions right.
Have a look at these two photoshop images and let me know what you think.

Also, I was wondering how and where to get precise measurements of these items (I live relatively close to both these museums, do they grant access to such informations there?), especially concerning those pommels...how thick are they?
My concern is that the cast fittings will be too heavy as a counter balance as the blade of the sword of Auray, although surprisingly well done, is very thin and light, while those fishtail pommels really look massive. How does the weight of blue wax compares to the final piece cast in bronze or steel? Is there a way to calculate that?

Cheers,

J



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Julien M




Location: Austin TX
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Apr, 2010 3:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh my, no feedback at all Happy

I thought this could be working quiet well, especially the Wallace design with the knobbed quillons.
Any thoughts? Any other ideas for mounting that blade?

Let me know!

Cheers,

J
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Apr, 2010 3:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't say anything you don't know already... It would look great with Wallace type fittings but I think they would be too heavy for such a light blade...

Last edited by Luka Borscak on Tue 20 Apr, 2010 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Apr, 2010 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: MRL sword of Auray project         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
e. How does the weight of blue wax compares to the final piece cast in bronze or steel? Is there a way to calculate that?


Can't be 100% certain without checking the exact type of wax you're using, but as a general approximation, the casting waxes have a density of around 0.97 to 0.95grammes/cm³

so, weigh your waxes accurately to work out their volume, and use the following approximations...

lead bronze - 7.700 - 8.700 grammes/cm³
phosphorous bronze 8.780 - 8.920 grammes/cm³
steel grammes/cm³ 7.850 grammes/cm³

or if you're not being ultra-accurate... it'll weigh about 8 times as much as the wax one. Happy
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Apr, 2010 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I hear you. I have the same dilemma with my clay models. Too light for the cross and pommel, too heavy for the grip. I experiment with the parts I intend to modify but that won't work in your case. You can make a good guess about what the pommel and cross will weigh, though, and use pieces of steel as weights. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.

As long as the castings are close to the size of the waxes, I doubt you'll have any problems with balance. I'm constantly amazed at how dramatic the change has to be to significantly move the POB. I'll go out on a limb and say that the cross and pommel you're developing will balance the blade within historical parameters. Yes, the Windlass probably isn't as stiff/thick as the originals, but I think it'll look and feel good. If it fails to penetrate your opponent the next time you fight, well....

I love the design, by the way. By coincidence, I'm also developing a mid-century sword--My spare Erbach blade. I'll be using a cut-down Towton pommel, but I don't have a cross. Wish I had one of these with the knob terminals....

-Sean

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It surprised me how thick the Wallace Collection sword's pommel was when I saw it in three-dimensions. I was surprised by the volumes and shapes, frankly.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 22 Apr, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes indeed they appear to be massive pommels, as those two shots taken during my last visit to Cluny show. Both blades, though thinner than the auray, feature very strong central ridges and as far as I can guess would be far heavier than mine. I'm going to have to go for a compromise for sure...Most reproductions of fishtails pommels I've seen were flatter, such as the ones made by pavel Moc. The only one I've seen made that seemed to match the original in size was on a custom sword made by Peter Lyon and showed somewhere on this forum. In the end, I'll probably end up with something in between such as the one on the A Burgundian (again, as far as I can tell from pics),

I'll guess around for the final weight of the piece Sean, I'll have to take a leap and see what happens when the pieces come back form the foundry. If you need a knobbed guard, I could always have them make more than one, but these are going to be shiny bronze:) (in fact they should even be brass as the original at the Wallace is iron plated) with brass. Anyway I don't have a timeframe for this project so this might take a while to come to completion.

Cheers,

J

I'll go grab some detailed shots at the Wallace before I star (since apparently we can!). Again, if you guys want some shots of items there, let me know.



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Julien M




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the detailed shots I'm going to use as a reference when carving the pommel and guard.
That's a massive pommel indeed Nathan...

J








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Thom R.




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love that particular hilt form and the Albion Burgundian is one of my favorite swords. My guess is that those fishtail pommels you have pictured are 350-400 g. They are relatively large....... For the particular blade you have in mind I am guessing you probably have to find a way to get the total weight down below 300g. I would suggest three ways to achieve this. one would be to narrow the "neck" - the other being what you have already stated, reduce the thickness. finally, you could have the neck portion hollow, that is - have a 10-12mm longportion of the wood grip go up inside the lowermost end of the pommel, like what is typically done for pommels for rattan weapons in the SCA. good luck with this one I will be very interested in seeing your design!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those photos are great!! Thank you. Very, very nice to see them.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Apr, 2010 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe a dumb question but do we know if the pommel is solid or hollow ?

When it's advantageous to have a very large pommel for some handling and/or aesthetic reasons it might also be advantageous to lighten it by making it hollow if a solid one would be overweight.

One could cheat a hollow pommel by using a lower density material like aluminium although I wouldn't find this very appealing.

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