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Dave Clarke




Location: Melbourne
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Timing Nomenclature, Silver etc         Reply with quote

Good day all and sundry,

Regardless of which flavour of European swordsmanship people reserve their appetite for, I'm confident that most, if not all, will have at least a conversational knowledge of Silver's swordsmanship. If people were to write a list of the top five most pertinent points about Silver's system, I'm fairly sure his True Times would be somewhere high on the list- even among those people who know little else about his work. Why is that? It is because it is such a valuable, fundamental and core principle of his art, and a key to truly understanding and mastering many other European arts.

While Silver’s nomenclature for his True and False times is extremely useful for those of us studying systems that utilize them, it must be admitted that over the course of a forum-based conversation the repeated typing of the long-winded terms becomes onerous. It occurred to me, during a typed conversation on swordsmanship, that a simpler set of descriptive terms might make such discussions much easier to understand and faster to type. To that end, I suggest the following shorthand names for each of Silver’s True Times:

Time of the Hand--------------------------1st Time
Time of the Hand and Body-------------2nd Time
Time of the Hand, Body and Foot------3rd Time
Time of the Hand, Body and Feet------4th Time

I am not suggesting that we abandon the terminology as used by Silver. His terminology adds a certain flavour to his text which is unique and charming to read. The proper names, and their meanings should be learned, known and memorised by students, especially the newer ones. The terms should be learned for a couple of reasons: a student of a sword art, I believe, should know the terms as used by the Master that wrote the source text; and the terms as written by Silver are self referential and self explanatory. In addition to this, we should seek to preserve any connections with the source material that we can.

I have here submitted my suggestion in the hopes it will foster discussion on this idea. I have disseminated this idea across the various HEMA fora because, if a new lexicology is to be adopted, it must be widely known to be understood.

Respectfully Submitted,

Dave Clarke
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Bill Grandy
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Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

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PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Dave,
I'm actually fairly indifferent to whether people use his full terms or not. But I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't use Silver's terminology to describe other systems unless if the system. I say this because not all of Silver's rules are universal, as some systems do in fact "violate" his rules, and yet those systems function just fine. Other systems already have their own way of explaining the same things that Silver says, so by using Silver's rules it just complicates things and muddies the waters.

(Plus, as much as I'm afraid to admit this publically, I also think Silver's treatise is one of the more overhyped and overrated works, only having gained so much popularity in the English speaking world because for a long time it was one of the only treatises in English.... but don't tell any of my HEMA friends I dared say that. Happy )

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
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Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
(Plus, as much as I'm afraid to admit this publically, I also think Silver's treatise is one of the more overhyped and overrated works, only having gained so much popularity in the English speaking world because for a long time it was one of the only treatises in English.... but don't tell any of my HEMA friends I dared say that. Happy )

Are you kidding, I'm going to quote you on that one Big Grin This is exactly my opinion...

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Dave Clarke




Location: Melbourne
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 13 Mar, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bill,

That's one of the reasons I'm suggesting what I am: applying terms applied by a master of one system to another system is not necessary.

However, I'm not aware of any parallels within the German system of combat to Silvers Times. The closest I can find is 'your foot must follow the blow', which is an obtuse reference to the hand needing to move first, however it is, in my mind far less well defined than Silver. Were you including the German system in your comment?

Oh, and don't worry, we all here on the interwebz can keep secrets. We won't tell anyone. Big Grin

Dave
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