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Rudolf M.




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 27 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Hungarian 15.century - armour,sabre,clothing         Reply with quote

Hi
Can you help me with reconstruction Hungarian 15. century noble man - armour,clothing etc.
Please 15.CENTURY! Thanx for anything:D
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It depends...
He may be royalty, high nobility or small nobility.
Also he may be from Hungary, Transylvania, Croatia, Slovakia or Bohemia.
Again he may by part of a Banderium (heavy cavalry) or he may serve as light cavalry (usually the nobles were cavalry).
The Hungarian knights were western like in appearance but with some eastern influences.
The equipment was highly decorated.
The emphasis was on mobility so even the heavy cavalry was a little less armored than a german knight for example.
The most common helmets in XV century were chapel de fer, sallet and early forms of zisagge (more turkish-like in appearance).
Armor was maille with a lot of decorated small plates (gilded/silvered but also decorated with semiprecious stones) attached in patterns,maille and plates yushman / bechter like armor but also gothic full plate (of italian design usually).
Sometimes the maille shirts had openings in front, with metal clasps.
Hungary and especially Transylvania was a "melting pot" for western and estern influences in military equipment so you could have a very large collection to chose from.
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Matthew Fedele




Location: Auburn, NY USA
Joined: 21 Jul 2005

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Didn't they have a version of the Winged Hussar or was that only Poland?
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Norbert Keller




Location: Hungary
Joined: 23 Apr 2009

Posts: 44

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi!

If I know well, we had, but bit later.
In these times our country was in war with turks. Our king, Mathias I. (1458-1490.) opened his foreign politics to the west (Germany and Italy,etc). And we had rule, that we receive /take in anybody who would like to live in our country, if he accept our rules, and respect the natives >>>this country was a big forge of people and culture from everywhere, and it can be seen in the military too. (Still today, the terminology/conception of being Hungarian is depending if he feels himself Hungarian in heart or not, his/her ancestry/foreign growth does not affect it. Of course I don't speak about official nationalization, thats about paperwork nowadays Happy )
Clothing fashions mostly came from the west but here also was some eastern and national wears. Armours were more mixed, and weapons too. You can see sabres, swords, and all other you want Happy
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

14??

Baron (they used generally north italian or south german armours), middle or a lawer nobleman?


Zoltán

(The polish winged hussars were a version of the hungarian hussars :-) The first ones came into Poland (in peace) with Stephen Báthory)
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Hungarian 15.century - armour,sabre,clothing         Reply with quote

Rudolf M. wrote:
Hi
Can you help me with reconstruction Hungarian 15. century noble man - armour,clothing etc.
Please 15.CENTURY! Thanx for anything:D


Ahoj Rudolf Wink

Nobleman from which part of century specifically?... (I might be generalising a bit but anyway). Until the reign of king Matthias Corvinus in the 1460's they looked very much like those from other central-western European principalities (despite some minor differences like head-wear etc.) as was their kit. Southern (i.e. balkan/turkish=ottoman) fashions come into spotlight later in the reign of the two (somewhat unsuccessful) Jagellonian kings in the later quarter of the 15th century. Again as pointed out it very much depends on the type of "nobleman" you want to portray. Is he some sort of border-lord serving as a light cavalryman ?(i.e. hussar, which were often Serbs in the Corvinus era) a Szekler ? or simply a lord from the mainland serving in banderia? Also western-style cavalry of the Hungarian kingdom was still prevalent into the early 16th (where most men-at-arms put up a heroic last stand against the Ottoman Turks- no offence to Turkish viewers just trying to sound melodramatic :P), thus you cannot go wrong with "standard" European knightly kit (well in case you want something different.. like those marauding serbo-hungarian border-lords).

Putting some pictures for motivation , so that I don't just babble about it Happy


This gentleman is apparently outfitted in southern fashion. A pavise from the era of king Matthias (cca 1460-1490) ; note that the cross-guard on the sabre is very "sword-like", also notice the balkan "wing-shield".( found this one on some Magyar forum apparently it comes from Kalmár János, Folia Archeologica XVIII (1966 67)) As such this might be an early image of a hussar


Now some noblemen (from the same family in fact) that no doubt served in banderia as western shock cavalry/men-at-arms (armed in full plate, longswords and all that..)

Szapolyai Imre effigy from 1487


Szapolyai István effigy from 1499 (still counts as 15th century methinks)


And last but not least some Gothic Schiavonesca/Hungarian style sabre and longsword (arguably 2nd half of 15th century, found via a splendid Russian website tforum.info):

[/i]

Best regards and good luck!
Samuel
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun 28 Feb, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
14??

Baron (they used generally north italian or south german armours), middle or a lawer nobleman?


Zoltán

(The polish winged hussars were a version of the hungarian hussars :-) The first ones came into Poland (in peace) with Stephen Báthory)


Good point Zoltan!
Wings were often associated with light-cavalry lancers even before the heyday of Polish husaria ( Brezinski's osprey book is pretty solid on the topic) and in fact there were no "un-winged" hussars in the era of 15-16 century . It appears that the custom derived from the Ottomans who had their own version of hussars , the "Deli" cavalry who were men of western-balkan stock, (i.e. Serbs , Bosniaks and Albanians).

1466 coat of arms of some Hussar, note the wing atop the helmet as well as the sabre that is drawn in it.


(retrieved via http://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/Címerhatározó/Huszár_címer)

Balkan Deli trooper from which the hussars according to Brezinski copied their peculiar fashion (interestingly the man depicted is an orthodox Serb, it also seems that they called themselves Zatacnici in Serbo-Croatian)note that the wings are fastened to the shield with rivets (in fact the shield itself looks a bit like a wing )


pic from Nicolas de Nicolay: Dans l'empire de Soliman le Magnifique 1551

Sorry for the OT everyone
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Rudolf M.




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 27 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 02 Mar, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Thanx everyone :D         Reply with quote

Thank you guys for help.
I got XV.century sabre, this is copy from some sabre in hungarian museum,can´t remember which one.
sabretache is made from wood and manta(devilfish?) leather.
How to get the picture here????
sorry,will try again..
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Tue 02 Mar, 2010 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Thanx everyone :D         Reply with quote

Rudolf M. wrote:
Thank you guys for help.
I got XV.century sabre, this is copy from some sabre in hungarian museum,can´t remember which one.
sabretache is made from wood and manta(devilfish?) leather.
How to get the picture here????
sorry,will try again..



Ow by all means do upload it ! Wink , just "add an attachement " and select the filename from your hardrive
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Rudolf M.




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 27 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 7:27 am    Post subject: Sabre         Reply with quote

Finaly I did it.Enjoy the pictures:D Sorry if the quality is low I used some JPG converter to sorted the pictures to max 220Kb.


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Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting debate. About hungarian nobility is no more publication. What book is in slovak about this theme.
There is hungarian sabre from end of 15 centrury.



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There is only one art of fence yet many ways to reach it
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Rudolf M.




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 27 Feb 2010

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Clothes         Reply with quote

Can you help me please with clothes? I know the armour was "western style" but what they wear, boots, delia, hats etc?
There is more information and pictures from 16.ct but I thing there must be something before. Good picture is Vlad Tepes - border nobleman,warrior etc.
In slovakia is not what could be definitely "XV.ct",just some pictures or sculptures in churches or few books.
Good book is - Rytier a jeho kráľ, Dvořáková (dunno if is available in english)
- Žigmund Luxemburský - životopis
and few more.
But still NOTHING about XV!!! ct. in Slovakia.There is lots of literature about Czech, hussits,books, pictures etc
But what about the Serbs, Slovak, Romanian and Hungarian culture, clothes, weapons?
I know they "usually" used western swords, armour, but I´m not sure about the clothes.
In some chronicle is sentence that man from western europe cannot see the difference between Polish, Hungarian, Serbs etc but everyone from this countries know the difference.
And some pictures I found.Not everything is XV.ct.



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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Splendid pictures Rudolf and Vaclav, thank you very much !

I have to ask nevertheless, are the sabres from those pictures genuine antiques or are they reproductions? Regarding the books in Slovak about the nobility of Kingdom of Hungary.. well I am afraid I don't know anything in particular , mind you most of them are semi-biographical and deal more with political stuff (not much in terms of arms and armour afaik), though if Id encounter something interesting I'm gonna spread the word Happy

Now about those sabres... the one Rudolf posted seems very similar to the one found on the portrait of Ippolito dei Medici (painted by Tizian, Medici was a papal legate in Hungary and iirc served against the Turks) from 1532-1534



as well as an earlier picture of Janissary by Gentile Bellini (painted circa 1479–81)



While the second one posted by Vaclav reminds me very much of the sword of Mehmed the conqueror, especially its hilt (who died 1481)


However if I where you Rudolf I might have gone for a more "Sciavonesca" style of sabre like this from a Hungarian museum (not sure which one exactly it is from, they also held an exhibit of the kit of king Matthias, but probably in Budapest) :



This 15th century depiction of a Hungarian official (udvarmester?) in Vienna seems confirm it :
retrieved from http://www.kepido.oszk.hu/index.phtml?ow_page...mp;step=10

Note the great similarity with the hilt on longsword (yep its the Balkan/north-Italian style which was tremendously popular in the Corvinus era) , the sabre you posted seems more Turkish in design and imo would be more characteristic of the Jagellonian era (post 1490s as some pictures of the early 16th century hussars show) when the Ottoman fashions really kicked in. However no doubt such pieces would be worn by the nobility in the border areas (like the Serbian border-lord Vuk Grgurević for example who had to watch the frontier for Ottoman raiders; Serbs possessed sabres in relatively Turkish design as the late 14/early15th century Kosovar frescoes show) It was no doubt a transitional era for the Hungarian nobility , however if you chose one way or another you cannot wrong imho.

Good luck !
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clothes         Reply with quote

Rudolf M. wrote:
Can you help me please with clothes? I know the armour was "western style" but what they wear, boots, delia, hats etc?
There is more information and pictures from 16.ct but I thing there must be something before. Good picture is Vlad Tepes - border nobleman,warrior etc.
In slovakia is not what could be definitely "XV.ct",just some pictures or sculptures in churches or few books.
Good book is - Rytier a jeho kráľ, Dvořáková (dunno if is available in english)
- Žigmund Luxemburský - životopis
and few more.
But still NOTHING about XV!!! ct. in Slovakia.There is lots of literature about Czech, hussits,books, pictures etc
But what about the Serbs, Slovak, Romanian and Hungarian culture, clothes, weapons?
I know they "usually" used western swords, armour, but I´m not sure about the clothes.
In some chronicle is sentence that man from western europe cannot see the difference between Polish, Hungarian, Serbs etc but everyone from this countries know the difference.
And some pictures I found.Not everything is XV.ct.


Yeah I know the frustration, its a pity that this area which is often regarded as the "Golden Age" of the Kingdom of Hungary (in fact one of the first European countries to undergo renaissance that spread from Italy) is so often overlooked. There were a number of Codexes in the era of Matthias that could shed some light on it perhaps.. There was also one Hungarian electronic library (on-line) which name I cannot unfortunately remember, that contained some of them (including Thuróczy chronicle). Alternatively you could also register and post here http://serm.sk/forum/index.php (if you havent already done so) , the Slovak fencing forum , there seem to be some members that are versed in the area of period clothes and fashions. In the meantime Ill go and see If I can dig up something on my own..
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Boris R.





Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Samuel Bena wrote:
Henrik Zoltan Toth wrote:
14??

Baron (they used generally north italian or south german armours), middle or a lawer nobleman?


Zoltán

(The polish winged hussars were a version of the hungarian hussars :-) The first ones came into Poland (in peace) with Stephen Báthory)


Good point Zoltan!
Wings were often associated with light-cavalry lancers even before the heyday of Polish husaria ( Brezinski's osprey book is pretty solid on the topic) and in fact there were no "un-winged" hussars in the era of 15-16 century . It appears that the custom derived from the Ottomans who had their own version of hussars , the "Deli" cavalry who were men of western-balkan stock, (i.e. Serbs , Bosniaks and Albanians).



It is wrong speling, the right is "DELIJE" as are FC Crvena Zvezda football fans from Belgrade today called. And the word itself means "splitters" because they were used to gather a fief called "HARACH". They were also called POTURICE which means "as turks" but doesnt sound nearly as nice in native tongue. It could also mean "on their assess". You see the word TUR = behind, bottom, butt.
The Ottomans had no Hussars, they were all coming from their Serbian vassals.
Remember, the Serbs were generally subjected to Ottomans by this time, having lost the Great Battle of Kosovo in previous century (15. june of 1389.) serbia, then called RASCIA is ruled by "despots" untile the yr. 1459. when it is officially made a part of the Ottoman empire, and remained so until the year 1804.) and the term HUSSAR is of their origin also. it is a version of a serbo-croatian word for river pirate used even today which is "GUSAR"

here is a clip from a much romanticised movie version of the serbian national epic "Battle of Kosovo". Here we see the almost mythological character, Prince (Kraljevic) Marko, in history this persona is a betrayer of serbian national interest but he was nevertheless made into an heroic and epic character, and it is a known fact today that he did not take part in battle of kosovo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpsHxcdzqP4

and part of the movie which shows the killing of Ottoman sultan Murat by Milosh Obilic, or Milush Kopiliqi from Drenica as would be more historically correct

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dktjVfkeVkQ

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Boris ,
interesting point on the Dellis.
From what I've read the original word however seems to be derived from Turkish word deli (nowadays meaning crazy , whereas back in the day it also meant "overtly brave" or some such). I'm well aware (and fascinated) of the Kosovo mythos and indeed the Serbian warriors were quite a valuable asset to the Ottoman war-machime (as well as for the Hungarian and Polish army of that era). As far as the origin of the word hussar is concerned, people are divided on this (several Hungarian theories claiming that there were Huszár families already before the 15th century). Its all etymology and well frankly hard to say (lets face it, in our fragmented central-eastern part of Europe almost every state has its own "national" history which is often contradictory to that of others and breeds frustration as you cannot make your own unbiased opinion ), I haven't found a satisfying answer for it yet... Perhaps we could discuss it over PM as it touches the 15th century Hungary only partially (though no doubt a very interesting topic by itself )
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed 03 Mar, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some photos that I think would help about the clothing. This are characters from a fresco from the Mathias Loggia at the Corvin Castle in Hunedoara, Transylvania, depicting the legend of John Huniady's coat of arms. The fresco it's late XV century and it was painted during the reign, as king of Hungary, of Mathias Corvin, son of John Huniady. Sadly the fresco it's baddly deteriorated and the photos were digitally enhanced by me so it would be more clear. But you can see that the costumes in XV century Transylvania were quite western-like.




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Vaclav Homan




Location: Hradec, Czech
Joined: 22 Jan 2008

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 3:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My information about hungaria are from: Vojenské dějiny Československa. Naše Vojsko 1985.
Is this reconstruction relevant.
Picture of hungarian sabre is from my friend from fencing groupe also it is acceptable.

Romulus where is in Transilvania good museum with wearspons from 15 and 16 century. I was in Oradea and Sigishoara.



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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You should check the National Museum of Transylvanian History in Cluj (their page is under re - construction)
http://www.museum.utcluj.ro/
and
Brukenthal Museum in Sibiu (arms and armors section).
http://www.brukenthalmuseum.ro/
Also You should check National Military Museum in Bucharest.
http://www.defense.ro/muzeumilitar/index.html
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Samuel Bena




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu 04 Mar, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vaclav Homan wrote:
My information about hungaria are from: Vojenské dějiny Československa. Naše Vojsko 1985.
Is this reconstruction relevant.
Picture of hungarian sabre is from my friend from fencing groupe also it is acceptable.



Hello Václav,

Your friend sure did some research and the sabre looks like a nice piece indeed! As to the picture you posted from the book about those Hussars , it appears they didn't equip themselves with Turkish-style helmets and mail until 1520's or so. The Battle of Orsha painting (fought 1514, while the painting was done a couple of years later) show them as unarmoured (their only defensive armament being the Balkan "winged shield") http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...-08%29.jpg
The earliest visual depiction of a hussar in mail and with a shishak helmet I have been able to found comes from a 1540 Coat of arms of Gávai Lukács (iirc some Polish documents from late 1520s already mention mail-helmet-lance-shield style hussars , though its still irrelevant for the 15th century)

,

retrieved from http://www.arcanum.hu/mol/lpext.dll/mol_cimer...tm&2.0

Speaking of Hussars , imareal shows something interesting as well (though the pic is awfully small imo) :



1489, Stammbaum der Babenberger, Leopold I fighting the Hungarians; they appear to be wearing turkic-style kalpaks , while their shields are more akin to the heater type , which is probably just the artist impression (as well as his non-familiarity with them)

Regards
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