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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Where are the simple rapiers?         Reply with quote

Where are all of the simple-hilt "rapiers" of the type shown in Saviolo and DiGrassi? They must have been common, but I can't find surviving examples anywhere (and I haven't seen any in painting of the period). Were they re-hilted as the fashion changed? I assume there are some in Italian museum collections, but I haven't found any Italian collections online. Any help is appreciated. One of the men below has two. I just want one. Big Grin


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-Sean

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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You mean these? There are enough of those around, honestly. I got those here from herman historica.


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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nope. Even simpler than those. Just a horizontally re-curved cross and globular pommel.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jim Mearkle




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fingering the quillon without a complex guard, as shown in the latter two pictures, is a good way to lose a finger.

I suspect they were shown that way to show hand position more clearly.

Or maybe it was a cost saving measure, just to make the etchings easier and less expensive. Printing an illustrated book must not have been cheap. Both Mair and Meyer got into financial difficulties as a result of their books.

Jim
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Glennan Carnie




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been looking too, with little success.

I know a sword (not necessarily a rapier) with a turned-down hilt and spherical pommel was found in an encrustation aboard the Mary Rose (1545); as was an early basket hilt. So such swords were found in England in the mid-sixteenth century.

There are also swords that match this type to be seen (if you look really, really closely) in the engravings from Cowdrey house.

It's possible that the well-known image of George Silver (demonstrating the correct length for a sword) is holding such a rapier (this time with a fore guard)

However, to date I've yet to find a real example of such a sword.

I was just lamenting this the other day: swords of the first quarter 16th century seem to be largely ignored by the community.

EDIT:

Some images from the MR, taken yesterday:

The most precisely-dated basket hilt sword (can be dated to exactly 19th July 1545!):


The 'impression' of a simple rapier (the iron remnants disintegrated as they tried to recover it):


A curved-hilted sword discovered when X-raying an excrustation. You can just about make up the 'ghost' of a sword in the image. (sorry about the poor quality - my wife took the photo and was actually focussing on the scabbard in the case not the images in the background!)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe I'll just make one and see what happens. Laughing Out Loud
-Sean

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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm, this one's close, I suppose. It was dug out in Germany .


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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's not it, either, but it is VERY interesting, Werner! Is it from Hermann Historica, too? Details!
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Already shared this with you in PM and it's an "almost". Let's put it here for others to see, too.




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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's the closest thing I've seen to what's illustrated in those documents, though this one has a flattened pommel and some illustrated examples appear to have massive globular pommels.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I see that the German sword is from Hermann Historica:

Lot Nr.3671

A German sword,

circa 1600. Double-edged blade with a somewhat shortened point, and fullered for half its length on both sides. Iron hilt with two ring guards and S-shaped quillons. The bent tang with vase-shaped pommel and remains of the original wooden grip. Well preserved archaeological find with heavy traces of corrosion at the point. Length 109 cm [42.9"].


Looks to me like the grip core is spirally carved for a wire wrap. Very interesting....



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Fri 19 Feb, 2010 1:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Werner Stiegler





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it from Hermann Historica, too? Details!


Not much honestly

Quote:
deutsch um 1600. Zweischneidige, beidseitig etwa hälftig gekehlte Klinge mit etwas gekürzter Spitze. Eisernes Gefäß mit zwei seitlichen Parierringen und S-förmiger Parierstange. Die verbogene Angel mit vasenförmigem Knauf und Resten des originalen Griffholzes. Gut erhaltener Bodenfund mit stärkeren Korrosionsspuren an der Spitze. Länge 109 cm
A german sword, circa 1600, double edged and a slightly corroded tip and fullers on both sides. Remains of the grip were found with it.

Though I think I've found one hilted like the one in your second image. It's an italian piece from the 1500s according to Herman Historica.



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That little sword is ca. 1500, but it's a distinctly Italian type and certainly might be an ancestor of the later 16th type I'm looking for.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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GG Osborne





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After having been lately reprimanded by Nathan Big Grin , I hesitate to mention this, Sean. It's not exactly what you are looking for but, again, close I think. Look on a certain ubitquitous website that allows people to bid on things, sort under Militaria and highest first. There is a new listing for a fairly simple rapier on the first page that pops-up. Nice decorations but fairly straightforward geometry.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

GG Osborne wrote:
After having been lately reprimanded by Nathan Big Grin , I hesitate to mention this, Sean. It's not exactly what you are looking for but, again, close I think. Look on a certain ubitquitous website that allows people to bid on things, sort under Militaria and highest first. There is a new listing for a fairly simple rapier on the first page that pops-up. Nice decorations but fairly straightforward geometry.


You can link to auctions (as has been done a thousand times on our site). We just aren't allowed to actively discuss them here, in particular as it pertains to critiquing an item for sale. This might be interpreted as sales interference. I'm sorry that you feel that informing you of rules or limits is reprimanding.

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