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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 25 Dec 2008

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Help needed: bauernwehr articles         Reply with quote

Hi to all.
I am in a need of help.
A local museum with which my group is working is being kind of stubborn. Basically they have a bauernwehr in exposition, but it's listed as a Turkish saber. We showed them numerous images and finds from the period as listed in this forum, but they don't seem to accept this. They said they want something "serious", so I am asking If anyone could provide a scientific article (read: from someone with a title) that shows this type of weapon, or has a photo of some in it.

Thanks in advance

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Martin Fischer




Location: Cologne, Germany
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Viktor,

maybe it's a Langes Messer? It's strange to confuse a Bauernwehr with a Turkish saber...

Please send a picture of this item, maybe I can help you...

Regards

Martin
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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 25 Dec 2008

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do. Here it is. As i understand this is a replica of an original find, which is in Hungary
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6040/98066127.jpg
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/772/79315041.jpg
The problem is,that the people there have not heard of such things as bauernwehr or messer, despite it being a military museum. Thats why we need just an article that describes something similar.

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You'll find many knives identified as "Bauernwehr" at Hermann Historica. If those match the museum weapon, I would think that's a very authoritative confirmation of your observation.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Martin Fischer




Location: Cologne, Germany
Joined: 21 Jul 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Viktor,

yes, it's a Bauernwehr.

You can find similar pieces like this in:

Heinrich Müller/ Hartmut Kölling: Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen, Berlin 1981, Page 233

Regards

Martin
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, no question about it. Classic Bauernwehr.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Werner Stiegler





Joined: 27 Feb 2007

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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any way to find out who labeled that Bauernwehr as a turkish weapon anyway? I have the queasy feeling that he's already death some twenty years at least.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A beautiful example. Thank you for sharing the photos.
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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Museum Attribution         Reply with quote

Hi Viktor

First of all good work on trying to contribute to your local museum and making the interpretation of the materials better than they are.

One element of this that can influence such issues is the internal politics of the museum itself. It is an area that is difficult to approach as many would claim such issues should not be part of the discussion but any one connected to any kind of hierarchal institution can probably point to multiple examples of it in practice. Changing what someone in the institution has set in print/code/ideal/mission/description can be fraught with problems of politics, power, and pride.

Should such things be part of an equation on such a thing as attribution of a historical item? No! But as we are human and not perfect, it often does and can even be a component of the Institutions identity. How can one approach such a problem as an informed scholar of the sword?

Well it can be difficult. People look to museums and their staff to be experts on the materials in their collections. This is not always the case. One can gain the curatorship of metals, lets say as an example, but not be familiar with arms and armor. While a disservice before all that is good in the world to our eyes :-), an institution may only have funding for one curator of metallic objects so one can find a bronze expert in charge of all metals collections or an expert in the use of gold ornimentation in stewardship of a large group of ironage artifacts. It is a sad fact of our priotities as a society that our past gets short shrift. ( Insert personally important point that makes you go out and support your local museum in some way - time, money, donation of material, take some kids to see the cool stuff Happy ) But we can help!

I find the best way is to humbly inform/help and instruct. They may not have the funds to change the card ( i have had this happen to me three times), the person you are discussing the issue with may not have the power to do such a change. They may have a bad boiler or leaky roof that is more on their mind and something they are unlikely to want to give as a reason why they are not focused on changing the description.

While all this may not pertain to your issue, I wanted to highlight some of the challenges in finding such a problem and trying to correct it. I have dealt with this several times. I have only been successful a few times as it is hard for some in the museum world to understand that an individual from outside without the credentials they are used to seeing may have useful information for them. Sadly even if they do recognize such they may not be empowered to address the issue at the time.

All I can recommend is be helpful and humble and they will learn that you are a source that can be trusted and relied upon for support and guidance.

Best
Craig
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Maurizio D'Angelo




Location: Italy
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig, I find your approach to the problem very balanced.
I have seen, the book mentioned by Martin, pictures, indeed, seem equal.
Viktor, would be interesting to know which are their sources, at this point.

Ciao
Maurizio
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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 25 Dec 2008

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FIrst of all thank you very much for the advice,and especially to Craig and Martin

This museum is specifically for the battle that happened near Varna between the Polish-Hungarian king Vladislav III Yagelo and sultan Murad II. So the exhibition contains items for both sides of the conflict.
Sometime in the 70s or 80s the museum received a gift from Hungary, which contained the said bauernwehr and a Turkish bow. However the items were not labeled in any way.
Naturally, based on the turkish bow, the director of the museum decided that both are ottoman in origin, and everyone knows that the knights used big bulky double edged swords :P...
so thats the story in short. And no they did not provide any other sources for their decision, and will not change their mind unless they see a scientific publication with something similar, or that discusses bauernwehr in general.
Up until now we have shown them various items from this site, from Hermann Historica, period images, items in other museums. However the people there are a bit backwards and for them everything you see on the Internet is not credible

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Werner Stiegler





Joined: 27 Feb 2007

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PostPosted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 3:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor Chudinov wrote:
However the people there are a bit backwards and for them everything you see on the Internet is not credible
Well, unlike us they have a name to loose. By the way, what about those catalouge photos from the Bayerische Nationalmuseeum? They have fragments of a messer there, Mr Nathan Robinson posted the image, maybe he can provide one in a better resolution of it too.


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Craig Johnson
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PostPosted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Providing service         Reply with quote

Hi Viktor

I would think Werner's suggestion of using museum catalogs is an excellent idea. You might also want to contact museums with these types of items in their collection and ask for confirmation of the piece you are identifying.

I would not doubt that there are an article or two out there dealing with this type of weapon but I would guess it is in German and I do not have much of that material to search. I would also ask the museums you contact if they know of articles that might help.

The Klingen Museum might be an excellent place to try.

There is also always the option to research and write an article yourself Happy This is the way many start their endeavors in research they see something that does not make sense and start asking questions. It does not have to be large. Even 3 or 4 pages discussing the knife in question in context and similar examples already published would be a great addition to the material out there and would be appreciated by many, even if it does not change minds at the institution in question.

Best
Craig
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Viktor Chudinov




Location: Varna, Bulgaria
Joined: 25 Dec 2008

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2010 3:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It never actually ocure to us that we can write to some other museum for information. Thanks for the idea..
One of the guys from our group is actually already preparing an article for the bauernwehrs in Bulgaria(edit: we have around 9-10 pieces), so that will also happen someday in the near future.
I'll have to ask for permission to post photos if you guys are interested

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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viktor Chudinov wrote:
.
I'll have to ask for permission to post photos if you guys are interested


Please do. I'm certain many of us are following this with inerest.

"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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