Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Zornhaw training Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 15 Feb, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Zornhaw training         Reply with quote

Hello,
I would like to share with you our zornhau training video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc

There are only one topic techniques. We want to make a new one with all other parts of Kunst des Fechtens.

With description at out homepage.

http://gesellschaft-lichtenawers.eu/tsc/en/ho...gove-video
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Tue 16 Feb, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Please post some sparring videos! I have enjoyed the videos posted which demonstrate technique and drills, but I want to see what your sparring looks like with everything put together.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
View user's profile Send private message
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We are goint to make video of the rest of the Zedel. But we plan record also some sparring so I hope you will be satisfied.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Martin Wallgren




Location: Bjästa, Sweden
Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 620

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the best vids on the subject I´ve seen so far.

Extreemly cool guys. It´s good when things like this get out and sets the standard higher for us other HEMAists.

Looking forward to see more and hope we meet up at some event soon!

Swordsman, Archer and Dad
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
James Head





Joined: 09 Mar 2008

Posts: 127

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love this video. It's been a YouTube favorite of mine since you first posted it. I love reading the comments of all the people who think you sped up the video. Personally I would like to see more videos about the zedel before sparring clip.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice, Anton! Nice, clean execution. More importantly, I like that you don't just stand statically and perform your actions, but that you are both moving into measure as each action happens, as it should be.

I used to cringe at YouTube videos of historical swordsmanship, but lately there have been some very good ones that portray our arts in very a very good light. This is one of them! Happy

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Wed 17 Feb, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton,

Am I looking at a prearranged drill?

If so, I love it! I didn't realize anyone else trained with way...entering each drill exchange as though it were real. I love the energy. Few of my guys can muster that much realisim in every drill.

If you guys ever find yourself in NY I'd like to invite you to NYFHA to compare notes and exchange ideas.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much everybody for so encouraging words.

Michael Edelson:
Yes, as the name of the video says, there are our training exercises from zornhau branch of Lichtenauer's "decision tree".
Thank you for your invitation, I can hardly predict if I will ever will be in USA or NY:) Maybe one day.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ben C.





Joined: 01 Dec 2006

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 18 Feb, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

very impressive work. It's nice to see people training seriously and taking WMA to same athletic level that you see in a lot of the more popular modern and eastern martial arts.
View user's profile Send private message
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You guys fence with amazing energy. I am impressed.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Andrew Maxwell




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 03 May 2009

Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, very very impressive speed and energy. Definitely top end stuff. Fantastic work.
View user's profile Send private message
P. Cha




PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2010 11:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice control at those speeds. It´s nice to see the intensity.
View user's profile Send private message
William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Anton

That is a great video. I love the intensity, speed and energy.

The videos coming out of Slovakia are, IMHO, the closest to showing what a real longsword fight might have looked like. Well done.

You have some interesting takes on the zornhau techniques. While I recognize many, some I do not. Would you mind giving us a rough breakdown of which technique/play you are showing next to the time codes? e.g. Zornort at 20 seconds etc? Thanks.

Cheers

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue 23 Feb, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you William,
first sequence rear fencer started with oberhau, second tried duplieren, first counter with "bruch" against duplieren, second tried mutieren but he got a hit with pommel to the face. All actions are very short in time, because you have to eliminate all action at their beginning.

Zornort 0:10-0:25
Bis sterker wider after strong bind against zornort 0:26-0:33
Nym es nyder after he versetzt Bis sterker 0:34-0:45
Oberhau with false edge after nym nyder 0:45-1:00
oben abnehmen and umbschlag 1:00-1:07
duplieren 1:20-1:22 then bruch against duplieren
1:25 mutieren against zornort attempt
1:42 absetzen against mutieren

Our older slowed down sucessfull zorntort and oben abnehmen for sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYpxtRZivps
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael Edelson




Location: New York
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 1,032

PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton,

I have a question for you...how much work do you guys do with the other weapons of the system? Spear, dagger, wrestling, etc.?

I'm asking this because you guys are among the best I've ever seen in videos and I'm curious as to how much you train, how long, how often and in what (and I guess I just asked you all of those things as well Happy ).

Thanks again for posting your videos, I really enjoyed them.

New York Historical Fencing Association
www.newyorklongsword.com

Byakkokan Dojo
http://newyorkbattodo.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,170

PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very impressed with the speed and the level of control to avoid injury as doing both at high speed is not always compatible.

My group ( the one I belong to, not mine personally. Wink ) train in a no-touch system as we try to stop our blows just before they would hit or touch. We do accept that sometimes there will be hits but they will be pulled enough that the protective equipment we use , just gloves and fencing masks, is sufficient.

I assume that the flexibility of the training blades have an effect on how hard one can safely hit ? We use wooden wasters and Albion or Hanwey/Tinker wasters with a few Windlass swords mixed in: Blunts but maybe a bit more rigid than the training swords you use. ( We do have one very flexible sword, and some custom made soft swords we are experimenting with to allow harder but still safe hits.

Oh, in all the time I've been a student, 4 years, I haven't seen or heard of as single accident more than a very light bruise.

Anyway, the above just as background to my actual question for this post: If I understand correctly these are training drills where the action is defined clearly in a " Agent/Patient " format where the Patient gives the Agent the attack or defence needed by the Agent to execute a technique when the technique is the ideal proposed way to deal with the sequence of attack or defence ?

I assume also that this is cooperative training as opposed to un-cooperative bouting but still very challenging as it is done at maximum or close to the maximum speed of a real fight ....... not easy to do even if the moves are planned and predictable i.e. very impressive speed and I think it show better how thing would look in a real fight if the move was perfectly executed than slower practice. In a way this is stress testing the moves but also training to get used to the real speed of combat. Wink Cool


Do you start out slow speed, then move up to greater and greater speeds in the learning process !? I assume that first one has to figure out and learn the " geometry " and " timing/distance " of the moves before trying to get to this impressive speed?

Also, I wonder if training at this speed eventually becomes essential to learning how to do it instinctively ? I think that always training at medium speed may make it impossible to get the right feel for the moves because " at speed " swords behave differently, fülhen will be different than at slow speed, inertia affecting the sliding of blade on blade differently than when moving slowly ?

When moving slowly or at medium speeds one can learn a great deal but one is trying to simulate in one's mind what would happen when moving fast but moving slowly may cause training " artifacts " that distort our understanding and execution of most techniques.

In conclusion I'm thinking that one should find a way to include very fast training if one want to train the brain and muscles to react quickly and instinctively: At these speeds one can't think of the parts of an action and must have the technique more as a single intention/goal than in a sum of individual parts that must flow together and not be sequential ?

At these speeds it become a case of " The mind of no mind " and the conscious mind has to be quiet and let the training work as there is no time for conscious decision making except at the very beginning of a fight when one should have a plan.

A long post just to say that " SPEED " has a quality all it's own, and to learn how to do something fast correctly one has to train fast at least part of the time.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Vincent Le Chevalier




Location: Paris, France
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Reading list: 15 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 843

PostPosted: Thu 25 Feb, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
A long post just to say that " SPEED " has a quality all it's own, and to learn how to do something fast correctly one has to train fast at least part of the time.

Quoted for truth...

I won't repeat what all the others said, I too like the energy...

There is just one thing that disturbs me, it's when you end up in ochs, then bend backwards to uncross the weapon and go to the other side, like at 00:38. The position seems unstable somehow, kind of weak, like you went too far with your feet and were forced to compensate with your back. That being said, I don't do German longsword, so if it works for you...

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Anton Kohutovic




Location: Slovakia, Trnava
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ochs is often executed with leaning backwards http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg or Kal's pictures.
At 0:38, it is extreme. But if you do a mistake you have immediately to save situation. If I'm still in tempo "vor" it's not too important if I'm a little bit unstable because my opponent cannot use it against me. (BTW It is not me at 0:38 unstable:))

We used to do all exercises in slow motion. We have a decision tree what to do in certain situation (tree is built up from Lichtenawer's Zedel). In the video, there are some sequences we used to train in real tempo.

Two types of swords were used in the video. Both are not very flexible.
Lighter and more flexible have 1.7kg weight. Longer and more rigid have 2 kg.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Greg Coffman




Location: Lubbock, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 254

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't understand the word "Zedel." It's not one that I have come across before in my studies. Could you explain it for me? Much appreciated.

Greg Coffman

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,146

PostPosted: Sat 27 Feb, 2010 6:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Greg Coffman wrote:
I don't understand the word "Zedel." It's not one that I have come across before in my studies. Could you explain it for me? Much appreciated.

Greg Coffman


This is Liechtenauer's teaching verse. It is a rhyming verse that students memorized to help them remember the techniques of the art, and is the basis of many of the various fencing treatises in the tradition.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Zornhaw training
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum