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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 10:15 am    Post subject: Does anybody know this type of pommel on a typeXVI ?         Reply with quote

Type: XVI
FIND PLACE: Maas in the Netherlands 1970
OVERALL LENGTH: 106cm
BLADE LENGTH: 87,5 cm
BLADE WIDTH: 5 cm
WEIGHT: 1195 gr
POMMEL TYPE: (still) unclassified
CROSS STYLE: 6
DATE:1300-1350
CONDITION: river-found excellent.beautiful flint-hart coat of Goethite (FeOoh) which is formed by the chemical interaction of rust wit the chemical constituent of the surrounding mud of the river Maas in the "silent" 600 years.
there is no corrosion, the erosion on the edges is the result of wear and honing.the blade is identical to Oakeshott
XVI.3 records of the medieval sword.



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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

some more pics.


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Last edited by Cornelis Tromp on Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Beautiful sword.

Had I seen the pommel by itself I would have guessed 16th C. A bit unusual for that period and style, but not by much.

Together with this sword it is really unique.
I have seen a type XII with a kind of facetted scent stopper pommel: also an unusual combination. But nothing like the sword you show.
Interesting!

Very nice blade. I think it is slightly longer and slimmer than the one from the National museum of Denmark in Kopenhagen.

It is interesting to note that the tang has been forged down in width as an adjustment to fit the pommel.

It is very nice to see swords with strong character and unusual features.

Thanks for showing. Sorry not to be able to help with pointing out any other contemporary sword with this kind of pommel.
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Matthew Fedele




Location: Auburn, NY USA
Joined: 21 Jul 2005

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is it common to have the fuller extend down the tang like that?
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Peter,

thanks for the compliment, I think the pommel is of a very rare unusual type but also dating from around 1300.

sofar I only found a similar pommel on a sculpture in Cathedrale de Constance dating around 1300, another one in the Stockholm museum on a woven cloth. another one in Chateau castelnaud. see pictures

regards



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Last edited by Cornelis Tromp on Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This would be a fantastic sword to see in production. Looking at the weight and dimensions it seems to be that it could be used in one or two hands, which the pommel shape would lend itself to accommodating.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
This would be a fantastic sword to see in production. Looking at the weight and dimensions it seems to be that it could be used in one or two hands, which the pommel shape would lend itself to accommodating.

Hi Paul,

I have a larger one and a half hand of this type XVIa in my collection, I will post it later.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Fedele wrote:
Is it common to have the fuller extend down the tang like that?


For certain types, yes. Happy If you check through our feature articles, you'll see a number of swords pictured that have that.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jan, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cornelis Tromp wrote:
Hi Peter,

thanks for the compliment, I think the pommel is of a very rare unusual type but also dating from around 1300.

sofar I only found a similar pommel on a sculpture in Cathedrale de Constance dating around 1300, another one in the Stockholm museum on a woven cloth. another one in Chateau castelnaud. see pictures

regards


Yes, I agree with you Cornelis. It seems to be very genuine and unusual. A happy mix Happy

The sculpture in the Cathedral of constance I think depict a spherical pommel actually. In the drawing it look bi-conical, but I have seen photo(s?) where it very much looks like one of those spherical pommels with "equator" that are commonly depicted in art (Maciejowsky bible for example).

The woven image from Stockholm may be a similar pommel, but can also be showing a pommel like the one I attach below.

BTW, that other type XVa long sword from Chateau Castelnaud is very beautiful! And also: good find to catch another pommel like the one on your sword.
I am looking forward to see your other sword(s)!

I find myself going back to look at your XVI(a?) sword. It is strikingly beautiful.
I wonder if there are similar pommels shown on some (English?) effigies? Something stirs in the back of my mind.



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This neat type XII is a swedish find. One among a group of three swords found in a river bank.

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This kind of pommel looks much later in style than the 13th C sword it sits on. A nice and unusual combination!

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This pommel from around 1500 is very similar except for the "collar" that steps down to the grip.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Jan, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting sword Cornelis!

I have one other example of a "spherical" type pommel, which is (theoretically) at least within the time frame: the sword attributed to Godfried of Bouillon, one of the leaders of the First Crusade.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...t=godfried
However, whether this sword isn't a much later attribution is quite debatable...

Btw, welcome to the forum from another Dutchman. Wink
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Paul,

herewith pictures of the sword I classified as a type XVIa mainly due to its blades construction ; a fulller of 54cm going into a stiff flat diamond shaped section and a reinforced point.
I must say the sharp tapering however belongs more to a type XVII.
this is of no problem I think because a lot of swords with a flat last quarter of the blade are also put in type XVIa. Actually these should belong better to a type XIVa, a subgroup which does not exist.

best regards

weight 1358gr/blade 93cm/ allover 118cm/ bladewidth at guard 50mm/ grip 20cm/ pommel wxhxt 51x45x40

ps" Dutchman" Paul, thank you for the link.



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Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 395

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the photo's Cornelis. Are the two you have featured your own swords? If so you are very fortunate to have such fine examples.
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jan, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
Thank you for the photo's Cornelis. Are the two you have featured your own swords? If so you are very fortunate to have such fine examples.


Hi Paul,

yes they are my own, among the swords I have collected , the simple appearance but hidden complexity, which give the extreme beauty to medieval swords , I enjoy most.

btw I think that you are right, the first sword can be used comfortably with one hand but also with two hands . Maybe therefor its better to put it into the subgroup XVIA.
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Cornelis Tromp




Location: Holland
Joined: 03 Jan 2010

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sat 13 Feb, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

found another sword with similar pommel in my files but unfortunately I can not remeber where it came from.


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