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Harry J. Fletcher




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Rocks and Michael B's Analysis of Their Proper Use         Reply with quote

I got a laugh out of Michael B. and his analysis of the proper use of rocks. He got it right when he stated that one proper use of a rock was for dropping. When beseigers finally got impatient and decided enough was enough and attempted to go over the wall (escalade) of a castle or under it or through it with a battering ram the defenders used large rocks to drop on the attackers. As Michael correctly pointed out rocks were used by slingers to help keep defenders' heads down while attackers were approaching the walls or attacking the walls.

Large rocks were hurled at walls by seige engines such as trebuchets, onagers, and ballistas while being hurled back at the attackers by defenders own engines. Later, rocks were used as projectiles from cannon to attack walls (not mentioned by Michael B.)

In conclusion we can in all honestly with a straight face say that a rock was indeed a historical weapon of war! We can even go so far as to say in the words of Bob Dylan: "....everybody must get stoned...."

To Study The Edge of History


Last edited by Harry J. Fletcher on Fri 15 Jan, 2010 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jared Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although not an offensive weapon type of use, simply piling large amounts of rocks (castles, walls, etc.) between defensive positions and anticipated points of attack has been a long standing defense tactic. I would say they have been highly valuable in warfare for most of its history.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence!
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone currently make historically-accurate rocks? I would be very interested in a few for my collection; but only if they have the proper size, weight, and feel for my current time period of interest. Happy
J.E. Sarge
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Dan P




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am a big fan of the "rock in a sock". You can tell a master of this art because he fights barefoot- all his socks are lined up on a weapon rack, neatly tied off with the heavy ends down.
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
Does anyone currently make historically-accurate rocks?


I have heard that various armourys in the upper midwest are developing historically accurate rocks of various size, shape and density. Preliminary reports and sneak peeks at the Ren Fair this summer lead me to believe that the rocks in question will be outside my price range. Sad Wink

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Eric Fick




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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jan, 2010 10:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use DIY rocks my self

=)

Cheers,

Eric Fick
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
Does anyone currently make historically-accurate rocks? I would be very interested in a few for my collection; but only if they have the proper size, weight, and feel for my current time period of interest. Happy


Beware of the cheap China and India made coppies! They have neither quality nor proper shape and thus, would be a waste of your hard-earned money!
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Daniel Sullivan




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.F.

Had one in my possession until just recently. It appeared to be very old, but there were a few things about it that made me suspicious, the point of impact varied considerably with every use, had little or no distal taper, the finish was incredibly crude, and most of all.... once launched it hooked to the right and had the glide ratio of a....stone.

Was hoping to do more study on it, but alas and alack, without thought, my wife pitched it toward a coyote chasing our cat. It is now about 300 feet down the mountain side and lost to me forever. Perhaps one day it will be rediscovered.

Dan
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Jean-Carle Hudon




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: finish         Reply with quote

I for one have always appreciated the workmanship in the high end Czech imports. It's not that rocks of american provenance don't do the job, but it seems that these high end imports pay more attention to detail. Maybe it is because they have greater access to the real rocks which were used to repell attacks on castles, or shot via catapults and other siege weapons.
However, those rocks used by North American native tribes are always better represented by north american artisans. I know it seems like a no-brainer, but american stone tomahawks are smashing. Cheers, JC

Bon coeur et bon bras
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R D Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A valid point. And the Rocky Mountains are a case in point. They are a much more recent result of tectonic plate movement and therefore much younger, and having been settled much later by migrating europeans, lack the historic significance of European rocks. However, as stated, our Native Americans may argue this point. I, myself, prefer igneous rocks rounded by erosion from water or soil because of their inherent aerodynamic and hydrodynamic properties. I've spent many insightful hours attempting to uncover their secrets. My wife on the other hand prefers those rocks that are compressed by the weight of the earth, developing clarity and brilliance that are unfortunately lost on me.
"No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation" ...Gen. Douglas Macarthur
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I volunteer to produce the Peters' Rock Typology, discussing the evolution of rock shape and form as applicable to medieval warfare from the 11th century through the 15th century.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared Smith wrote:
Although not an offensive weapon type of use, simply piling large amounts of rocks (castles, walls, etc.) between defensive positions and anticipated points of attack has been a long standing defense tactic. I would say they have been highly valuable in warfare for most of its history.
Yes. They first tried straw and then wood, but both were blown down and the pigs were robbed Happy
Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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Scott Hrouda




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
I volunteer to produce the Peters' Rock Typology, discussing the evolution of rock shape and form as applicable to medieval warfare from the 11th century through the 15th century.

I would be very interested in seeing your typology.
Would you begin with a type X as a starting point for 11th century rocks and progress onwards from this point?
What basis would you use to classify specific rocks; origin, shape, weight, color, handling characteristics, etc.?
What of rocks that could be specifically tied to pre-11th century warfare?
Would your typology be Euro-centric, or would you include sub-types for African, Asian, Middle Eastern and American rocks?

Again, I can't wait to see your detailed rock typology!

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Mike Arledge




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Should we designate a small weapon of rock different from the larger version like say, a boulder? At what point does a rock become a boulder? If Craig does the typology, who will do the fechtbuch?
Mike J Arledge

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Harry J. Fletcher




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: The Stone as a Historical Weapon         Reply with quote

Posted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 9:32 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a rock I picked up from the river. Very nice, fast especially when hurled from a sling. I have a slightly larger one from a construction site, mainly use it for dropping out of windows. Steer clear of Pumice, it tends not to have the weight to carry a punch.


In all seriousness, I don't own any personally, I have a friend with an obsidian knife which is wicked sharp, I have a glass knife that I really like though.
_________________
Michael B.

Above is the original reply posted by Michael B. in response to STONE WEAPONRY on the HistoricalArmsTalk forum.

I liked his post and thought I would have a laugh with it but it was moved from that forum to this forum although I don't know why since both deal with "historical weapons" or so I thought. Some stone age weapons are ok for discussion on that forum and others are not...oh well....! I think it is safe to say that "...people who live in glass houses should not throw stones..." or when searching for that perfect rock don't get chiseled.

One can say that all of us participating in this discussion have rocks in our head..... Worried Worried Worried Worried Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud

Harry

To Study The Edge of History
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Michael B.
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are all crazy.

With that being said...

Boulder - "a detached rock mass, somewhat rounded or otherwise modified by abrasion in transport and larger than a cobble" with a minimum size of 256 mm (about 10 in).

Pebble - "a rock fragment larger than a sand grain or granule and smaller than a cobble, which has been rounded by the action of water wind or glacial ice. It is therefore between 4 mm (~0.15 in) and 64 mm (~2.5 in)".


A rock is mass of hard consolidated mineral matter of any size.

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Michael Bergstrom
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stone as a Historical Weapon         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
I liked his post and thought I would have a laugh with it but it was moved from that forum to this forum although I don't know why since both deal with "historical weapons" or so I thought.


It should be pretty obvious from the nonsensical bent of most of this thread why it's in the Off-Topic Talk forum.

Happy

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Harry J. Fletcher




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PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stone as a Historical Weapon         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
I liked his post and thought I would have a laugh with it but it was moved from that forum to this forum although I don't know why since both deal with "historical weapons" or so I thought.


It should be pretty obvious from the nonsensical bent of most of this thread why it's in the Off-Topic Talk forum.


Have I just been officialy stoned? Large stone? Cobble? Pebble?



Regards,

Harry

To Study The Edge of History
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Fri 15 Jan, 2010 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stone as a Historical Weapon         Reply with quote

Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
Harry J. Fletcher wrote:
I liked his post and thought I would have a laugh with it but it was moved from that forum to this forum although I don't know why since both deal with "historical weapons" or so I thought.


It should be pretty obvious from the nonsensical bent of most of this thread why it's in the Off-Topic Talk forum.


Have I just been officialy stoned? Large stone? Cobble? Pebble?



Regards,

Harry


Yes, yes you have...on all counts Wink . Then again so has anyone else reading this thread hehe.
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Blaz Berlec




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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like stones.










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