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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Continental basket, i need an adivice         Reply with quote

I have currently placed an order to armour class of scotland for a custom basket hilt, initially i was oriented toward an early
basket hilt of scottish-english form, later i have changed my mind and i have started to look at some less usual form
of basket mainly from the mid-late XVIIIth century, but now i have reverted to my former idea to have a sword from the
mid late XVIth century. I have started to take a look at the album section and some reviews, and i have found some very interesting patterns, i like especially the kind in the attached picture. My criteria of choice are: period of time from 1540s to 1570s,symmetrical hilt form.Do you tink that this pattern is correct for what i'm looking for? if not could you show me some alternative?

thanks for help



 Attachment: 67.59 KB
ebe_germanic_sword005.jpg

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I took that photo. Please consider adding copyright notices / photo credit when you utilize a photo in your posts.

Please note that the sword shown in the photo is assembled from the parts of two different swords. The grip, pommel and blade are from one sword. The basket from another. For those interested in an explanation of why I did this, please reference the topic that discusses it.

The form of all the elements together shown above is not based on any historical example.

The basket form would be of late16th century.

Please note that the pattern is not symmetrical. Historical basket-hilts of this type are not symmetrical.

Shown below is the sword assembled in its "proper" form. The basket is with its real grip, pommel, and blade.



 Attachment: 40.35 KB
ebe_cont_bh_nathan_robinson2.jpg
EB Erickson Continental Basket-hilt
South European, late 16th century
Copyright © Nathan Robinson


 Attachment: 40.47 KB
ebe_cont_bh_nathan_robinson1.jpg
EB Erickson Continental Basket-hilt
South European, late 16th century
Copyright © Nathan Robinson


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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

sorry for not having included the copyright notices, i'll remember it for sure the next time i'll post a photo.

the additional views of the hilt are interesting, from the photos in the album section i have had the impression that this kind of hilt was symmetrical, also it is interesting to note the thumb ring inside, do you think that it was a common feature for this kind of hilt? also was this kind of sword intended for mounted or foot use?
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E.B. Erickson
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Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gabriele,
These baskets come in symmetrical and assymetrical versions, and I think the symmetrical ones are in the majority. All the examples that I've seen have a thumbring; however, some that are in museums may not have them, and they can be mounted on the wall in such a way that you can't tell if they've got one or not.

Horse or foot? Can't tell, but some have very long (37") single-edged blades.

--ElJay
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mr. Erickson,

thank you for your help, could you tell me an approximate date for that style of hilt? i have seen some depiction of german landsknecht wearing some similar pattern from the 1560-1570s



 Attachment: 85.51 KB
Landsknecht_1570s.jpg


 Attachment: 87.63 KB
Gunners_1578b.jpg

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the ones I've studied (from photos), they almost always are asymmetrical in one form or another, generally at least having a thumb-ring or a "bias" to the grip that gives more room for the knuckles on one side or another. Even when the pattern is symmetrical, the "bias" changes the angles on one side or another and creates asymmetry.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
could you tell me an approximate date for that style of hilt? i have seen some depiction of german landsknecht wearing some similar pattern from the 1560-1570s


While it's hard for me to tell exactly what type of hilt is being depicted in that artwork, they are absolutely beautiful images! Do you know the source?

They are both most definitely the last half of the 16th century, probably the last quarter. I'd say circa 1570-80 based on the clothing.

I love that stuff.

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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi Nathan,

the images are from this link: http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk50/Dstaberg/?ac

i have found it searching the word "katzbalger" on google, and if i remember well the album's owner is a member

of myArmoury. Many interesting images about late-landsknecht, many armed apparently with the style of basket hilt

discussed here, some apparently mated with short blades.
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Daniel Staberg




Location: Gothenburg/Sweden
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Both images are indeed from my album, the black and white Doppelsöldner is by Jost Amman while the one in colour is taken from the 1578 "artillery book" of Joachim von Arentsehe, a wonderfull work in the Danish Royal Library. Full credit for bringing this source back into the light must be given to Dr. Mortesen. Without his superb work on the pre-1600 Danish artillery I would never have known that von Arentsehe's book existed.
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Gabriele Becattini





Joined: 21 Aug 2007

Posts: 715

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 2:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel,

thanks for having cited the source, very usefull for tentetively dating the kind of sword cited in this topic, may be the 1570-1580s could be the right date. any chance to have some links for further images related to the work of Amman and von Arentsehe?
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E.B. Erickson
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Location: Thailand
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 450

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan, 2010 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gabriele,
I've seen dates from the mid-1500s to the 1620s or so applied to antiques with this type of hilt. I usually just say "circa 1600" when asked to date this type of sword!

--ElJay
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