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Nathan Johnson




Location: Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Painted armour         Reply with quote

i'm looking for any images, descriptions or theories anyone might have on brightly painted harnesses and helmets used in the late 15th and early 16thC so I can put together a reasonable database on this style.

Black munitions is ok but anything about colours, flames, heraldry, chequerboard, suns/starburst, stripes or symbols of any kind would be much appreciated

unfortunately its something i have read about but you rarely find intact (thanks to Victorian era polishing Sad )

If I can find any good examples I would like to try painting parts of an infantry harness myself
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JG Elmslie
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: Painted armour         Reply with quote

Nathan Johnson wrote:
i'm looking for any images, descriptions or theories anyone might have on brightly painted harnesses and helmets used in the late 15th and early 16thC so I can put together a reasonable database on this style.

Black munitions is ok but anything about colours, flames, heraldry, chequerboard, suns/starburst, stripes or symbols of any kind would be much appreciated

unfortunately its something i have read about but you rarely find intact (thanks to Victorian era polishing Sad )

If I can find any good examples I would like to try painting parts of an infantry harness myself



there's this one one in the Kelvingrove, glasgow.
the painting may be a little later - late 16th, though the harness itself is dated to 1500

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What the heck kind of helmet is that? It looks exceptionally crude compared to the rest of the harness. That's an interesting early-1500s armour - the very long fauld definitely reflects the age of it.
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Hisham Gaballa





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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The helmet is a type of sallet which appears on German armours from circa 1500-1510. unlike the more typic 15th century sallet in which the the visor only covers the nose and middle of the face, this type covers the mouth and chin as well. There is a line drawing of one in Claude Blair's "European Armour circa 1066 to circa 1700" (No. 122, page 202), Only Blair describes it as a 'close-helmet'.
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Norbert Keller




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi there!

Perhaps these pictures will help a bit to deal with the helm.
I also suffer the same problem, there are some pictures, drawings with blackened, coloured armour, but I havent found any still existing coloured armour from the late 15th century Germans yet (except the "black" sallets), but I will not give it up! Happy



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From The Wallace Collection. All German, ranging from 1500-1515.


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-Sean

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whoa - that first one...way cool! Thanks for posting those pics, Sean!
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Edge and Paddock's book has an example of a painted sallet on p. 99. It is dated c.1490.
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Frances Perry
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 4:05 am    Post subject: Painted Armour         Reply with quote

Whilst I have not seen any other examples of painted armour, in terms of anything other than Helmets (and the picture already posted here), I believe you may find an earlier thread on here interesting in terms of the designs used.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2700

I'll carry on looking though!

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Black and white painted barbuta from the "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight"

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of the best painted armours is the garniture belonging to Mikolaus Radziwill of Lithuania.





The painted sallet in that thread above also seems like it may have been part of that garniture:



This seems to be a jousting sallet or "rennhut" made for the joust in the open field with sharp lances or "scharfrennen." You can tell from the reinforced, thickened bottom portion with the lifting peg. There was almost certainly a heavy grandguard that went over the front.

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Frances Perry
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ca. 1490-1500 - 'sallet from Ulm', South German, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Austria:

Care of a Flikr album:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13973564@N07/2044025156/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2043...otostream/[/url]

“In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use.”
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jan, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's late so I'll be quick.

Here's some examples.



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Cabasset, circa 1600, Wallace Collection
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Circa 1480-1500, sa vient d'Autriche

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Painted Sallet

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Jan, 2010 2:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That painted sallet matches the pattern on the surviving garniture of Prince Mikolas Radziwill. It appears to be a "rennhut," a heavy reinforced sallet for a joust with sharp lances, and I am certain there was, at one point, a matching bevor and grandguard that accompanied it. That enameled garniture is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful of all time, and the intricate strapwork on it is very "Eastern" looking - very unique.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jan, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know where this is located. Any info would be appreciated.


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Circa 1485-90

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Gregory J. Liebau




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jan, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam, the Nikolaus Radziwill IV harness is not painted, per se. As you mentioned in your second post, it is enameled, but the process is much more involved than painting could ever be. The surface of the metal is etched and gilt, silvered and enameled with pigment-laden metallic dust.

The sallet is indeed part of the garniture, which is now spread throughout Europe. I believe it is currently housed in a Swedish national museum? The form of the sallet was archaic by the 1550s, but Northern jousting harnesses continued to use such sallets well into the late 16th century as elements of what are most commonly known as "Saxon" harnesses today, due to the order by a Saxon duke of some 20-odd matching suits for a tournament in the 1590s. It would be awesome to see if the original cuirass reinforcement incorporated the same detailed enamel as the rest of the harness, which would seem unreasonable given its purpose. A floating bevor was unlikely, but rather one that was incorporated into the chest piece.

I was meaning to write a report on the garniture last year when my computer with most of the information I'd collected suddently died on me and I have yet to properly retrieve the work. I had the luxury of seeing the main portion of the harness at the Kunsthistoriches Museum in Vienna, and the work was impeccable. Lochner certainly did an admirable job creating that eastern-inspired garniture. I only wish more of the entire panoply survived through to modernity. With any luck, some private collector will throw a newly discovered piece of it on the market someday!

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Adam D. Kent-Isaac




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Jan, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:

The sallet is indeed part of the garniture, which is now spread throughout Europe. I believe it is currently housed in a Swedish national museum? The form of the sallet was archaic by the 1550s, but Northern jousting harnesses continued to use such sallets well into the late 16th century as elements of what are most commonly known as "Saxon" harnesses today, due to the order by a Saxon duke of some 20-odd matching suits for a tournament in the 1590s. It would be awesome to see if the original cuirass reinforcement incorporated the same detailed enamel as the rest of the harness, which would seem unreasonable given its purpose. A floating bevor was unlikely, but rather one that was incorporated into the chest piece.


Know this: those Saxon armours continued to be used up until the 1930s! The scharfrennen hung on in Saxony long after jousts of any kind disappeared from Europe; the description of one of the Saxon armours at the Philidelphia Museum of Art says: "The name of Lieutenant Colonel Christian Vitzthum von Eckstädt is painted on the inside. von Eckstädt took part in the 1719 jousts held to celebrate the marriage of Prince Frederick Augustus II of Saxony." A joust in 1719 would have been anachronistic enough but they were held all the way up until 1936, as has been discussed in other threads here - someone here even claimed to have video footage of it, which I would still love to see if you have it (PLEASE!)

Dresden armour:



Outfit4events will make you a
replica of it:


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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jan, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That Wallace cabasset gives me ideas. The lion looks like one of my cats. Big Grin
-Sean

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jan, 2010 7:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
That Wallace cabasset gives me ideas. The lion looks like one of my cats. Big Grin


16th century lolcat? It has the scroll/tablet for the text and everything Big Grin

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 29 Jan, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bjorn Hagstrom wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
That Wallace cabasset gives me ideas. The lion looks like one of my cats. Big Grin


16th century lolcat? It has the scroll/tablet for the text and everything Big Grin


i can haz florida?

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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