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Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Feb 2006

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Attaching spearhead         Reply with quote

I bought a 7 foot ash pole 1 1/4 round for a Euro-spearhead from Windless I had also purchased. It says it fits the 1 1/4 pole but it appears I have to modify it to get it on. Any tips on how to do this and also secure it? Do I just drill the hole and use a common nail? Also the ash pole is almost white should I stain it or leave it natural? What would be more historical?
Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Etienne Hamel




Location: Acton Vale (QC) canada
Joined: 09 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Sun 03 Jan, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi, i bought one too but didn't got it yet but i was told to use some epoxy glue for the head (only the last inch with glue on) and then use a nail to secure it but i will use only some screw to place it because it is much easier to deal with than the nail and glue tough nor very historical Laughing Out Loud
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I used hot melt glue for attaching arrow and javelin points. Holds pretty well and it is very easy to remove the point if you need to: just heat it with hot air gun. I think it would work for spear as well. Use nail/screw in addition to glue if you need absolute reliability.
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Audun Refsahl




Location: Norway
Joined: 15 Feb 2006

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

no, dont use glue.
use a sharp knife to make the end of the pole fit perfectly into the socket. its just some work, thats all. just do it accurately. get a tight fit. there should be a small hole in the socket on the spearhead. or preferably two. drill through there and put a pin in and rivet it. or get a nail that dont go all the way through and hammer it in.

just bacon...
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Audun Refsahl wrote:
no, dont use glue.
use a sharp knife to make the end of the pole fit perfectly into the socket. its just some work, thats all. just do it accurately. get a tight fit. there should be a small hole in the socket on the spearhead. or preferably two. drill through there and put a pin in and rivet it. or get a nail that dont go all the way through and hammer it in.


Yeah the glue isn't absolutely necessary and I usually just put a little near the socket mouth and don't fill it up completely.

If one has to make a new pole because the old one broke or is damaged the glued in wood might seem like an impossible task to dig it out but it's actually easy to remove it: Use a large drill bit and drill a lot of closely spaced holes in the wood remaining in the socket, if enough holes are closely spaced enough one can get almost all of the wood out as the holes end up being a single really ragged hole. A chisel of knife can get the rest of the wood out.

But again a tight fit and a nail as a backup is certainly enough. Wink Cool ( maybe I just like the smell of 5 minute epoxy Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool )

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

See this thread for detailed discussion and diagrams showing how to do this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12124

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Audun Refsahl




Location: Norway
Joined: 15 Feb 2006

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 1:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

oh, if one has used glue before and regrets, most glue will melt at around 100celsius degrees, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, but well below temperatures that will harm the steel...
oh, and i wont be responsible for anyone harming themselves following my advice :P

just bacon...
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Addison C. de Lisle




Location: Maine
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip on the glue; I was going to epoxy my spearhead on as well. It makes sense not to use it in the event I want/need a new haft.
www.addisondelisle.com
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Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Feb 2006

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
See this thread for detailed discussion and diagrams showing how to do this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12124


Sean, what I gather from deciphering that thread is to be historically accurate the spearhead has to sit flush with the diameter of the pole so I would have to begin by cutting a step(or groove) in it and shave it down from there to fit the spearhead tightly on. Correct?

What about the natural color of the ash pole is that fine?

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Jan, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
See this thread for detailed discussion and diagrams showing how to do this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12124


Sean, what I gather from deciphering that thread is to be historically accurate the spearhead has to sit flush with the diameter of the pole so I would have to begin by cutting a step(or groove) in it and shave it down from there to fit the spearhead tightly on. Correct?

What about the natural color of the ash pole is that fine?


Well some are flush but some are only partially stepped if the socket wall is thick and the pole of smaller diameter than the outside of the pole.

I think that historically you could find everything from flush to partially stepped to not stepped at all.

Oh, and there was a discussion about the stepped versions creating a weak stress point or not that wasn't 100% conclusive.

The natural colour should be fine if you are making a spear as it would have looked when new.

I don't know if the darker ones where stained dark in period or just got that way as they aged ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
Joined: 17 Feb 2006

Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
See this thread for detailed discussion and diagrams showing how to do this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12124


Sean,
Any hint on how or what tool you used to cut the initial grove for the step? I bought the stanley surform but still think it will be difficult to create a step just using that.

Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin P Molloy wrote:
Sean Flynt wrote:
See this thread for detailed discussion and diagrams showing how to do this:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12124


Sean,
Any hint on how or what tool you used to cut the initial grove for the step? I bought the stanley surform but still think it will be difficult to create a step just using that.


A sharp knife will work fine. Then you just whittle or chisel to the base of that cut, facing toward the base of the haft. You can get some idea of that in my diagram. Then you use the Surform to create the cone that conforms to the inside of the socket.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Peter Remling





Joined: 28 May 2004

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jan, 2010 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've has a good deal of success on long socketed spear heads , by tapering the haft so that it fits exactly ,then making a small score or roughing up he tapered area around the haft about 1/2" down fom the widest part. Place the open socket on your gas grill and let it heat up to about 200-250 degrees. This is below the temperature that would effect heat treating. Take the still hot spearhead, mount it on the haft and useing a piece of wod on the tip or a pair of pliars, likely tap it in place, dip in water to cool, wipe down and oil. The expanding metal, once contracted will provide a very secure fit and is relatively easy to get off by th reverse method.
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Audun Refsahl




Location: Norway
Joined: 15 Feb 2006

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun 10 Jan, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

as a sidenote, in one of the sagas, snorre, but i cant remember what king, there is an incident where a man takes out the pin on the spearhead before he throws the spear. that way, if he misses, the spear can not be thrown back at him. this happens in a small showdown with only the two fighters (IIRC), and he doesn't use any tools.
might give an idea about how well it should be fixed...

just bacon...
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S.R. Lewis




Location: Fl, U.S.A.
Joined: 07 Feb 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know this is a little off topic, but recently, I was looking at getting a recreation steel Sioux lancehead. Unlike historical european spears which are socketed this spearhead and others I was looking at have a tang. How would you go about fixing a tanged spear/lancehead like this to a shaft?
S.R. Lewis
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S.R. Lewis wrote:
How would you go about fixing a tanged spear/lancehead like this to a shaft?


In my experience, you can:

(a) Split the end of the shaft, and chisel some space for the tang. The one split half can be cut past the end of the tang, so it's like the two halves of a two-piece wood handle around the tang, one half of which becomes the main shaft. One should strengthen where the cut is. This is the standard Japanese method for mounting spears and naginata (usually also two reinforcing rings, one at the end of the shaft, and one halfway between these). If it's a thin wide tang, you might be able to get away without chiselling. For a thin flexible shaft, you don't need to cut one side off, since the split sides can be bent easily, as long as the split goes far enough past the end of the tang. I've seen a shaft end split into 3 rather than 2 (although this might have been accidental during an attempt to mount like (b) below).

(b) Drill or drill and burn-in or equivalent. No split, just make a hole for the tang. I've only seen this for round or square-section tang.

In all (historical) cases of (a) I can recall, and most, if not all, cases of (b), the end of the shaft is reinforced. This is by metal sleeves or rings, wire wrapping (brass or iron, often flattened if heavy), or cord, leather, or rawhide wrapping. (I also see wrappings like these reinforcing below the socket on socketed spears.)

The head can be held on by pins/rivets, glue, or friction.

I've seen American lance heads that looked like they have thin wide tangs, maybe only 3mm thick (and there are replicas like this, for sure). These look like multi-function trade blades that could be mounted as lances (in a split shaft) or as knives (with handle scales, or maybe even just some wrapping around the tang). I'd be tempted to mount one in a shaft with a sawed or sawed/filed slot the right width for the tang thickness. The shaft could be planed down to the width of the tang, or if needed, the tang could be filed narrower. Then lots of wrapping. Some of these heads have lugs that would stop the head from coming out, so it wouldn't be necessary to pin the tang (but you could). Some replica heads come with pre-drilled tangs.

It isn't that different from how one might mount a flat stone blade.

I don't know what's done to the very end of the shaft - if anybody has good photos of an American native lance to post here.

You could also start with two planks, and stick them together (rather than splitting a single piece). Chinese waxwood kung fu staffs - naturally tapered, peeled and smoothed, not turned - might also be good. In an earlier discussion about wood for such, it seemed that the best easily available urban option was the 6' red oak bo. Maybe a bit thick for one-handed spears.
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S.R. Lewis




Location: Fl, U.S.A.
Joined: 07 Feb 2010

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Man, thank you for the advice, I definately appreciate it. I've never mounted a spearhead like this before so I wasn't terribley sure how to go about it.

I think I pretty well understand most of it. My only question is with that drill, drill-in, and burn-in method you mentioned. The drill and drill-in sounds fairly straight-forward but how does the burn-in method work?

S.R. Lewis
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Tue 09 Feb, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S.R. Lewis wrote:
My only question is with that drill, drill-in, and burn-in method you mentioned. The drill and drill-in sounds fairly straight-forward but how does the burn-in method work?


Drilling will give you a cylindrical hole - round, and straight. A tang will usually be tapered, and often square or rectangular in cross-section. One solution is to heat the tang, and use it to burn its own hole. You can start by drilling a pilot hole, smaller than the final hole will be.

Also done for knife and sword grips; for example, http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17288 discussed this method for a seax.

By the way, I think that if using a drilled hole for the tang, it might be good to wrap the end of the shaft first. You want to use a hole a little narrower than the tang, and wrapping first will help stop the end of the shaft from splitting as you force the tang in.
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S.R. Lewis




Location: Fl, U.S.A.
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Feb, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: thank you         Reply with quote

Mr. Nieminen,

Sir, thank you very much for the advice. I think i've pretty well got a good idea how to do this now. So, I really appreciate you sharing your expertise.

S.R. Lewis

S.R. Lewis
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Josh Skaarup





Joined: 29 Mar 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Mar, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've got the Windlass viking spearhead last year, and mounting it was quite easy. I simply took the end of the shaft and tapered it using a hand rasp and a couple turns on a bench grinder. Then I just force-fit it (grab the socket, and smack the butt of the spear on the ground a couple times) I then put a small nail into the hole for such, and ground it down. It got a little loose a few months ago, after repeated throwings/thrusts into stuff, so I just gave it a couple more whacks. Also, I have something called Chair Lock, which is a natural oil product that causes wood to swell. Some drops trickled into the socket made it nice and tight.

I've also just recently stained the shaft a deep walnut, and it looks very attractive.
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